"Masters" trash talk...

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

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Matt Rovaris
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Postby Matt Rovaris » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:55 am

Stacy Clifford wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say that rapier is sissyfied, but I would kind of agree that it doesn't feel quite as "manly" to me as cutting and striking weapons do. I don't think that makes it any less challenging to fight with or against though. However, I'm beginning to understand Silver's contention that it was only good for murder the more I use it.


Then perhaps it's time you start asking yourself what you're doing wrong, starting with your theoretical and historical grasp of the weapon.

Sorry, Stacy, but every time I hear people using words like "manly" in conjunction with a weapon I go into alert mode, even with myself. Every time I feel like I'm starting to dismiss a weapon, the first element I question is myself perhaps getting too lazy and comfortable with my ideas about it. Do I know enough about how it was used? Am I practicing with the necessary intent? Am I overlooking the bulk of the historical work surviving about the weapon (and if you go by what Silver says on the rapier, yes you are)?

And a little open mind and a lot more work usually goes a long way to elevate the weapon back to its proper stature.

If you are a true martial artist, a switchblade in your hands is more "manly" than a baseball bat in the hands of someone who has no idea what you can do with your weapon.

Matt

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ChristineChurches
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Postby ChristineChurches » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:40 pm

Matt -

As Stacy already stated, discussions about the "manliness" of the rapier should be another thread.

Let's keep this on topic.

Thanks.
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William Elder
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Postby William Elder » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:50 pm

Stacy Clifford wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say that rapier is sissyfied, but I would kind of agree that it doesn't feel quite as "manly" to me as cutting and striking weapons do. I don't think that makes it any less challenging to fight with or against though. However, I'm beginning to understand Silver's contention that it was only good for murder the more I use it.


So this begs the question, Stacy: what qualities define "manly" in this context? Mirriam-Webster equates it with strength and virility. Does your definition differ?
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Gene Tausk
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Postby Gene Tausk » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:35 pm

William Elder wrote:
Stacy Clifford wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say that rapier is sissyfied, but I would kind of agree that it doesn't feel quite as "manly" to me as cutting and striking weapons do. I don't think that makes it any less challenging to fight with or against though. However, I'm beginning to understand Silver's contention that it was only good for murder the more I use it.


So this begs the question, Stacy: what qualities define "manly" in this context? Mirriam-Webster equates it with strength and virility. Does your definition differ?


William and Matt:

Any more posts on the "manliness" issue on this thread and it will be closed. Stacy is clear that he simply prefers cutting and striking weapons while the rapier is clearly a thrusting weapon. Don't "read into" something that clearly is not there.

Drop it.
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Stacy Clifford
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:44 pm

William Elder wrote:So this begs the question, Stacy: what qualities define "manly" in this context? Mirriam-Webster equates it with strength and virility. Does your definition differ?


I'll answer Matt and William quickly, and then this topic needs to be either dropped or started on another thread. Matt, it's simply a gut feeling, that's all. I have plenty of respect for the weapon, I'm not ignorant of the many sources for it, and face me with one in sparring and I'll leave you a few reminders of my skill and intent with it; I take no weapon lightly and I've already stated that I enjoy the rapier as well. Getting lazy and comfortable at anything with my sparring partners is a guarantee of going home with extra bruises, so that's not an option. There's no way I can define what I see as "manly" without taking too long to type, raising more controversy and dragging this topic out further. It's not important to this thread and has no effect on anything, including my training, and I'm sorry I brought it up.
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Mark Lancaster
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Postby Mark Lancaster » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:26 pm

Sorry that this is a very late post - but I tend to lurk infrequently.

Jason and Ilkka have been having a good discussion about Fiore and (although I've been reading for ages) I've only managed to scan down the 8 pages (so hopefully this hasn't been mentioned).

Jason mentioned two lines from carta 6a of the PD that are in Latin. Although I agree, I would not put these forward as being non-Italian. Only the prologue/epilogue sections mentioned are truly in Latin, the rest of the MS is Italian. All of Fiore's manuscripts have Latin words within the Italian that do not appear in modern "Tuscan" Italian ("cum" being the most common example) and the language at that time is in a dialogue form which contains Latin.

These two lines just happen to be Latin within the dialogue, rather than being written in Latin (if that makes sense :? ). The pilcrow cuplets that each appear in are, in my opinion, 15c regional Italian.

Many thanks,

Mark
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Jason Taylor
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Postby Jason Taylor » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:21 am

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of that possibility.

You guys have a handy transcription/translation, by the way. I've been working my way through it.

Jason

Mark Lancaster wrote:Sorry that this is a very late post - but I tend to lurk infrequently.

Jason and Ilkka have been having a good discussion about Fiore and (although I've been reading for ages) I've only managed to scan down the 8 pages (so hopefully this hasn't been mentioned).

Jason mentioned two lines from carta 6a of the PD that are in Latin. Although I agree, I would not put these forward as being non-Italian. Only the prologue/epilogue sections mentioned are truly in Latin, the rest of the MS is Italian. All of Fiore's manuscripts have Latin words within the Italian that do not appear in modern "Tuscan" Italian ("cum" being the most common example) and the language at that time is in a dialogue form which contains Latin.

These two lines just happen to be Latin within the dialogue, rather than being written in Latin (if that makes sense :? ). The pilcrow cuplets that each appear in are, in my opinion, 15c regional Italian.

Many thanks,

Mark
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Mark Lancaster
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Postby Mark Lancaster » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:45 am

Thanks Jason - it's a good discussion that you have been having, lots of thought provoking stuff. It's nice to see things being re-examined as it keeps us all fresh.

Ironically I'm going to go off-line again as I'm about to head off for Easter break :roll:

(PS: We are going to get our fingers out in the the next couple of months and get the rest of those translations formatted for the web).

Cheers,

Mark
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Jason Taylor
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Postby Jason Taylor » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:37 am

Mark Lancaster wrote:(PS: We are going to get our fingers out in the the next couple of months and get the rest of those translations formatted for the web).


Cool. I'll look for them.

Jason
I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.--The Day the Earth Stood Still


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