Based on test cuts, is "edge smearing" effective?

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

User avatar
CalebChow
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Based on test cuts, is "edge smearing" effective?

Postby CalebChow » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:00 pm

This is a bit of a hard question as it's hard to measure the extent of a hit, so if I'm not being specific enough please tell me.

I've been watching various sparring videos on youtube, and one clear difference that I see between most videos and the ARMA ones is the strength of each blow. ARMA videos are hands down with much more force in the blows, but I also see less winding in ARMA.

I don't want this to be a "ARMA is just better than everyone else" debate...I'm just trying to understand why each group does things in their respective ways. 8)

Most non-ARMA videos seem to show a fair amount of winding that ends up sacrificing a solid footwork base just to get one's sword edge in contact with the other person's flesh in a sort of "smearing" of the edge on the opponent's flesh.

Obviously, a moderate slash or poke to the eye or to the neck would successfully disable/kill the opponent, but a lot of the "hits" to areas such as the shoulder, arm, and torso that I've seen in videos just don't seem to have the feet planted in order for such strikes to actually do any decisive (that is, win/loss determining) damage.
I see the attacker's shoulders angling off to avoid the enemy's blade, the feet getting messy when up close, etc. . But, if such moves are indeed effective on less-fragile parts like the torso (as opposed to the eyes), I can see the use.

For those that have done test cuts on meat and skin:

Do slices/cuts of "edge smearing" actually do anything more than give superficial cuts? I always felt that the longsword was meant for hard strikes that gash limbs and body parts open, and not "edge smearing" that hopefully cuts an artery.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that all discussed strikes/cuts/slices are on bare skin.
"...But beware the Juggler, to whom the unseemliest losses are and who is found everywhere in the world, until all are put away." - Joachim Meyer

User avatar
Brandon Paul Heslop
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:56 am
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Contact:

Re: Based on test cuts, is "edge smearing" effecti

Postby Brandon Paul Heslop » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:27 pm

CalebChow wrote:This is a bit of a hard question as it's hard to measure the extent of a hit, so if I'm not being specific enough please tell me.

I've been watching various sparring videos on youtube, and one clear difference that I see between most videos and the ARMA ones is the strength of each blow. ARMA videos are hands down with much more force in the blows, but I also see less winding in ARMA.

I don't want this to be a "ARMA is just better than everyone else" debate...I'm just trying to understand why each group does things in their respective ways. 8)

Most non-ARMA videos seem to show a fair amount of winding that ends up sacrificing a solid footwork base just to get one's sword edge in contact with the other person's flesh in a sort of "smearing" of the edge on the opponent's flesh.

Obviously, a moderate slash or poke to the eye or to the neck would successfully disable/kill the opponent, but a lot of the "hits" to areas such as the shoulder, arm, and torso that I've seen in videos just don't seem to have the feet planted in order for such strikes to actually do any decisive (that is, win/loss determining) damage.
I see the attacker's shoulders angling off to avoid the enemy's blade, the feet getting messy when up close, etc. . But, if such moves are indeed effective on less-fragile parts like the torso (as opposed to the eyes), I can see the use.

For those that have done test cuts on meat and skin:

Do slices/cuts of "edge smearing" actually do anything more than give superficial cuts? I always felt that the longsword was meant for hard strikes that gash limbs and body parts open, and not "edge smearing" that hopefully cuts an artery.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that all discussed strikes/cuts/slices are on bare skin.


Hello, Caleb.

Forceful slices, or Schnitt as they are referred to in some German fechtbucher, can indeed be effective. Test cutting against meat has demonstrated this. The question, I believe, is largely one of time & place. A forceful slice across the wrists or the top of the hands can sever tendons. A forceful slice across the face would be dreadful. A slice to the throat...well...I'm sure you can imagine.

So, yes, slices or "smears," can be effective, and decide a fight. While they may not kill instantly, they can render the opponent vulnerable to a killing \ maiming blow or thrust, or what have you. The English called slices "rakes," and the few remaining English sopurce materials even talk of several successive slicing actions, or "rakes," delivered rapidly one after the other. "Raking" is good for probing an opponent's defences, as well. Harrassing him until he leaves himself open to a more decisive attack.

This being said, however...and I caution that this is dangerous ground, (just read through my Master's trash talk" thread to get my meaning)...what you are describing in said "non-ARMA" videos would NOT be effective, IMO. This is my opinion, and I have my reasons for it. I will comment on it no more in this thread.

So, there you have it. I hope this helps.

-B.
Thys beeth ye lettr yt stondÿ in hys sygte \
To teche . or to play . or ellys for to fygte...

"This [is] the letter (way,) [for] standing in his (the opponent's) sight \
[either] to teach, or to play, or else for fight..."

-Man yt Wol.

User avatar
Stacy Clifford
Posts: 1126
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 11:51 am
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Postby Stacy Clifford » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:42 am

I'll wade carefully into this one, but I've seen what you describe in some of the videos, and my take on it is that ARMA and these other groups are trying to approach the same problem from opposite ends. The goal of sparring of course is to execute technique well with energy, speed and power to simulate a "masterful" fight accurately.

The way I see it, the groups you mention are trying to start on the technical end, trying to execute all the techniques perfectly at slower speeds and hopefully add more energy as they get better. Some groups may also keep it slower for perceived safety reasons, but I think that's secondary here. I think that their videos show them thinking their way through a fight, trying to do it the way they think it ought to look. They are unintentionally concentrating on the technique at the expense of the fundamentals (and yes, we do it sometimes too, but we try not to). I'm not going to speculate on why they take this approach because I'm not them, but objectively I can see the logic that might lead one in that direction even if I think the reasons for the other side are stronger.

ARMA takes a somewhat opposite approach because we believe that most of the advanced techniques you see the other groups trying to perform require energy and speed in order to work correctly, so we approach sparring with energy and speed first using more basic techniques first and work our way up, adding more advanced technique as we get better. Our videos, in my opinion, show us feeling our way through a fight using what we have committed to muscle memory and reacting with more expedient violence in more realistic time. If we see an opportunity to use more advanced technique then we go for it, but we don't shy away from using just a plain old zornhau when we see that it will get the job done. Since the fundamentals often work very well by themselves and are easy to remember under stress, you're naturally going to see a lot more of them statistically in most full speed fights.

Now before everybody jumps all over me, I am not trying to disparage the approach that I think the other groups are taking. Given dedication and perserverance, it CAN lead to the same sparring goal I described above that we would all like to reach. It is simply my opinion from my own experience with my fellow members that that is the longer and more difficult of the two roads to becoming a serviceable fighting man. Mastery is of course the goal we would all like to reach, but in those times for a new student of the art deadly violence was often close while mastery remained distant, and a master's first duty was to provide students with enough rudimentary skills to defend themselves against real violence ASAP, lest they not make it back to class tomorrow. We try to approach our sparring with this in mind, and I am only offering my speculation on what the other groups are doing. I know something about that approach because we've all tried it both ways before, but we in ARMA believe one way is better and I've tried to explain why.

As for the edge smearing, I agree with Brandon that slicing does cause real damage when done intentionally and correctly. If I'm reading you right though, it sounds like you're talking about blows that are getting turned into a slice when they really seem like they should land with a chop. Those are probably not going to be as effective as they are intended to be because they are usually aimed at deeper targets like the brain stem and the shoulder blades that take more power to get at. By sacrificing the solid footwork base as you describe, they are reducing their damage potential and overreaching to make a technique work as described when they haven't given it the proper leg to stand on. Once you get your footwork right, then you can usually see pretty quickly how everything is all supposed to fall in place. Personally I think the best thing you can tell your instructor when learning something new is, "Do it again and let me watch your feet."

Now as hard as I've tried here to remain objective, I'm sure I've still set up a half dozen bear traps to step in with the non-ARMA folks here, so be nice guys, I mean no disrespect.
0==[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Stacy Clifford
Free-Scholar
ARMA Houston, TX

Chris Ouellet
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:38 am

Warning: strong opinion

Postby Chris Ouellet » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:08 pm

I have a strong opinion on this issue: slices are simply ineffective.
I have no videos to offer as proof but I have performed limited tests of my own. It's one of the things I plan on doing scientifically in the future. Cloth can bunch, bone is impervious and swords can have nicks.

The only time a slice is useful is when you have failed at landing a stab and the opponent is unprepared for a counter attack. I have never come across an instance where it is preferable to slice rather than slash or stab. A damaging slices almost invariably involves full extension of the arm (whether at the start or finish) and that can be better utilised in performing a stab.

I have few strong opinions in sword fighting, this is one of them. I've seen way too much crappy slicing of dubious effectiveness on the net.

User avatar
Shane Smith
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 2:15 pm
Location: Virginia Beach

Re: Warning: strong opinion

Postby Shane Smith » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:16 pm

Chris Ouellet wrote:I have a strong opinion on this issue: slices are simply ineffective.
I have no videos to offer as proof but I have performed limited tests of my own. It's one of the things I plan on doing scientifically in the future. Cloth can bunch, bone is impervious and swords can have nicks.

The only time a slice is useful is when you have failed at landing a stab and the opponent is unprepared for a counter attack. I have never come across an instance where it is preferable to slice rather than slash or stab. A damaging slices almost invariably involves full extension of the arm (whether at the start or finish) and that can be better utilised in performing a stab.

I have few strong opinions in sword fighting, this is one of them. I've seen way too much crappy slicing of dubious effectiveness on the net.



As a rule, if I'm draw-cutting anyone in freeplay, it is only because my point or edge missed and passed you by the first time whether it was from the thrust on a pass or from the bind.

I field dress game animals with a knifes edge. The edge drawn forcefully along flesh can do horrendous things...but they are lesser than a good cut or thrust will do. Good fencing involves all three; Thrust, cut and slice.
Shane Smith~ARMA Forum Moderator
ARMA~VAB
Free Scholar

Chris Ouellet
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:38 am

Postby Chris Ouellet » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:35 pm

I don't doubt you Shane, a slice can certainly do damage. Experiments done against bare flesh with lots of support yield the best results. Moving or any type of hard material can drastically reduce its effectiveness.
It needs to be applied in very restricted circumstances and with good knowledge of anatomy and materials, I remain convinced it is certainly not a primary means of attack with swords of any kind. It's in the repertoire, don't get me wrong.

User avatar
Brandon Paul Heslop
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:56 am
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Contact:

Re: Warning: strong opinion

Postby Brandon Paul Heslop » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:09 pm

Chris Ouellet wrote:I have a strong opinion on this issue: slices are simply ineffective.
I have no videos to offer as proof but I have performed limited tests of my own. It's one of the things I plan on doing scientifically in the future. Cloth can bunch, bone is impervious and swords can have nicks.

The only time a slice is useful is when you have failed at landing a stab and the opponent is unprepared for a counter attack. I have never come across an instance where it is preferable to slice rather than slash or stab. A damaging slices almost invariably involves full extension of the arm (whether at the start or finish) and that can be better utilised in performing a stab.

I have few strong opinions in sword fighting, this is one of them. I've seen way too much crappy slicing of dubious effectiveness on the net.


I disagree, for a couple of reasons.

1: Slicing can be very effective in the action of checking the opponent's foreararms \ wrists with your sword, as opposed to deflecting \ parrying his or her blade. This works particularly well when the opponent breaks from the bind to strike high, and you are low.

2: Slicing can be effective when passing back from a close bind, just as the opponent is moving in to strike with the hilt or grapple. Gets me out of Ringen-am-schwert all the time, provided I don't want to come to grips (say, against a more skilled grappler \ bigger guy than me).

3: Slicing can be decisive when traversing to the opponent's side from a bind wherein both combatants arms are fully extended. As you pass deep to the opponent's left , you deliver a strong, fast "rake" across the opponent's face \ throat. It works well. Try it.

4: Any number of other reasons.

As for the slicing afterr a "missed" thrust (intentionally or unintentionally, ahem), I agree completely. That is exactly what is meant in the Ledall by "A proffer, a rake, etc...."

-B.
Thys beeth ye lettr yt stondÿ in hys sygte \

To teche . or to play . or ellys for to fygte...



"This [is] the letter (way,) [for] standing in his (the opponent's) sight \

[either] to teach, or to play, or else for fight..."



-Man yt Wol.

Chris Ouellet
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:38 am

Postby Chris Ouellet » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:10 pm

Brandon, no problem with disagreement, we're simply going to have to disagree on this one.

Slicing forearms is definitely out of the question if the opponent is prepared for a raised slash. Unless you intend to slice both arms at least one will bring the sword down upon you with guaranteed more dire consequences. I would be very surprised if any historical texts or styles (European or otherwise) advocate this. I'm always fine with being proven wrong.
One of my personal pet peeves is the "I sliced your wrist argument" after a clumsy exchange - that's very hard to do on a mobile opponent. You can cause some damage to the thumb tendons, or the finger tendons, but to do both requires very particular circumstances and skill because these are at right-angles to each other. In my mind it's in the same lot as determining if a sword "tap" would cause real damage, a light slash using the wrist instead of the shoulder and arm. If you're at all in danger after executing this difficult to adjudicate technique, in a real sword fight you would be betting your life.
I agree that throat slices are better than wrist slices if you wish from your example, face slices, not so much, the face has a lot of bone.
I'm a strong advocate of "do whatever you can, make sure it would end the fight" in sparring. If you have to sit there and argue about angles and force, it's clearly not decisive whereas many techniques are.
Last edited by Chris Ouellet on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cooper Braun
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:04 am
Location: Boulder, CO

Postby Cooper Braun » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:32 pm

I agree that throat slices are better than wrist slices if you wish from your example, face slices, not so much, the face has a lot of bone.


Have you ever been cut/sliced on the face before? The face is full of nerves, its bleeds like little else and it is disconcerting as hell. I have had my face sliced (no fighting, I work construction, and jagged steel is a bitch) a couple of times, and ever light sliced to the face are something that might take me out of a fight. I think that you are missing the shock value. Even a medium/light sliced to the forearm, while not debilitating is going to hurt a great deal, and the shock value will often times end a fight.

I don't know if they are listed moves, but I have got pretty good at winding my sword around my opponents wrists during the bind. I think that with a real blade it would cause pretty hideous damage.

Slices (as defined as draw or push cuts) are part of the German system, and I've seen what a knife (as oppossed to a much larger sword) does to dead deer (hide and all), and I wouldn't want it to do that to me.

Chris Ouellet
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:38 am

Postby Chris Ouellet » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:05 pm

Cooper Braun wrote:Have you ever been cut/sliced on the face before? The face is full of nerves, its bleeds like little else and it is disconcerting as hell.


Facial cuts/slices happen in boxing, MMA to name a few and they are not show-stoppers. Just last night I was watching an MMA fight where the back of the guy's head was quite literally peeling with blood everywhere, he was still fighting. Adrenaline is a very impressive thing in action. And for the record yes I have received a severe slash to my forehead and have a permanent scar there. Painful yes, debilitating no.

Slices (as defined as draw or push cuts) are part of the German system, and I've seen what a knife (as oppossed to a much larger sword) does to dead deer (hide and all), and I wouldn't want it to do that to me.


Slices are part of any edged sword fighting system as far as I know, it's the where and when and how which is debatable. I'll stick to my guns, it's not a primary means of attack. It's very situational and often difficult to adjudicate.

Examples of slicing I deplore at 2:03 in this video:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xAJyR4a1O9o
There is no guarantee that such a slice would end a combat.
For the record this is a "good" slice at 1:03:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=D7nUFpznK ... re=related
Clearly on fleshy targets - the armpit/underarm - after a failed/feinted stab and with the opponent in a position unable to immediately counter. That's a well executed slice.

User avatar
Brandon Paul Heslop
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:56 am
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Contact:

Postby Brandon Paul Heslop » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:22 pm

Brandon, no problem with disagreement, we're simply going to have to disagree on this one.

That's cool.

Slicing forearms is definitely out of the question is the opponent is prepared for a raised slash. Unless you intend to slice both arms at least one will bring the sword down upon you with guaranteed more dire consequences.

That's exactly what I'm talking about - on both forearms - it begins as a "block," followed with a fluid slice. And it's in the fechtbucher. Not a primary form of attack, to be sure, but it can be an effective one in Blossfechten. One also needs to remember to take footwork into account, here. I'm not advocating simply standing there like a fixture. It's best done with a pass to the opponent's side. For reasons I can't get into right now (I know, lame), this kind of attack is faster than others, particularly from the bind, and is often unexpected (clue: read Swetnam). A lot of this applies to Bleiben, or "remaining."

I've mentioned the English stuff a couple of times in this thread. From the Ledall: ...when yore enemy playeth a profer with a rake and begynnyth to pluke bake hys sworde to sete a quarter... The proffer is a long thrust, most likely directed at the opponent's face; it is usually executed at the beginning of the exchange, and is intended to provoke a fearful response, driving the opponent back or dead in his tracks. It is usually followed with a "rake," or a slice, most likely to the adversary's hands\wrists\forearms. The above passage mentions theses being used against the fencer, and mentions "when he beins to pluck back his sword, [in preparation] to set (as in "set-up") a [cut]." At this moment, when he "plucks" back his sword, he is vulnerable - particularly to a fast attack from the bind, such as a strong slice to his forearms. He "plucks" back his sword. You follow with your own, placing your edge along both of his forearms. He doesn't get the chance to "bring the hammer" down, so to speak. By the time he knows what has happened, you've traversed to his side and sliced deep into both his forearms, quite possibly severing tendons and thus making it impossible for him to defend against your second attack. This is done from the bind, essentially, and it is the bind, speed and counter-timing that provides you the protection that you need in order to execute it effectively.

More later.

-B.
Thys beeth ye lettr yt stondÿ in hys sygte \

To teche . or to play . or ellys for to fygte...



"This [is] the letter (way,) [for] standing in his (the opponent's) sight \

[either] to teach, or to play, or else for fight..."



-Man yt Wol.

User avatar
Brandon Paul Heslop
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:56 am
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Contact:

Postby Brandon Paul Heslop » Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:52 pm

I would be very surprised if any historical texts or styles (European or otherwise) advocate this.

Well, I've already listed some Euro texts that advocate slicing. The English fragments, for one. The fechtbucher, for another. Here's some more examples from this very site:

Abschneiden / Abschnyden :

(“cutting aside” or “cutting off’ or “to slice off”) 1. Short drawing cuts known also as Schnitt (“slices”), called Rakes in English, used at closer distances against the opponent’s forearms and hands, they can be made with both the lead and the back edges. These are drawing cuts generally used against the opponent’s arms at close range. Made singly or doubly (i.e., upwards and then down, or downwards and then up.) 2. To Slice over the arms from below or above; usually with Langer Schnyde (Long edge). Abschneid = Cut Away

Alter Schnitt :

(“After Slice” or “The Ancient Slice”) A cut over the arm of the opponent when he has repulsed a Nachreissen. To move in to slice on the opponent’s extended arms as a Nach action following the completion of his strike. Part of the “secrets” of fencing –in contrast to the fundamentals of the art.

Drey Wunder :

(the “three wo[u]nders”) The three principle actions used in the Krieg or Handarbeit phase of sword close combat, the cut (Hau), the thrust (Stoss), and the Schnitt (a slicing or drawing cut). The thrust was used primarily at longer range, the cut at medium range, and the slice more at closer range.

The German sources inform us to "move close" when at the bind, "or you will be injured." And that's because it's more difficult to thrust or execute a percussive strike when your opponent is in close. This is where slicing comes into it's own. When you pass deep to his side, it's harder for him to hit you because you're in close, but it's very easy for you to slice him.

I'm always fine with being proved wrong.

You're a better man than I.

More still later.

-B.
Thys beeth ye lettr yt stondÿ in hys sygte \

To teche . or to play . or ellys for to fygte...



"This [is] the letter (way,) [for] standing in his (the opponent's) sight \

[either] to teach, or to play, or else for fight..."



-Man yt Wol.

User avatar
Brandon Paul Heslop
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:56 am
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Contact:

Postby Brandon Paul Heslop » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:50 am

One of my personal pet peeves is the "I sliced your wrist argument" after a clumsy exchange - that's very hard to do on a mobile opponent. You can cause some damage to the thumb tendons, or the finger tendons, but to do both requires very particular circumstances and skill because these are at right-angles to each other.

I understand where you're coming from, here. To be honest, I think we probably agree more than we disagree. I noticed the videos you linked to in your above post were of Japanese fencing. Obviously, this isn't what I practice, but I have cross trained with a few Kendo \ Kenjutsu practioners. The erroneous belief that the katana is some kind of "super sword" that can cut through anything, distorts many practioners of the Japanese sword arts perceptions. A slight "brushing" of a sword simulator in bouting does not count as an effective slice in my book, either. I've had similar problems with this kind of faulty perception myself, though mostly in cross-training w\ Kendo \ Kenjutsu guys. Cross training is still valuable, though, (at least it is when you can get someone from the Japanese fencing community to deign to even talk to you, let alone spar).
As for tendons, the only tendon you need to snip is the thumb tendon to render the opponent incapable of wielding his sword. ANY tendon being cut is going to have a dramatic effect, however.

In my mind it's in the same lot as determining if a sword "tap" would cause real damage, a light slash using the wrist instead of the shoulder and arm. If you're at all in danger after executing this difficult to adjudicate technique, in a real sword fight you would be betting your life.

I understand your logic, here, but...I think you're underestimating the damage a strong, pressing slice can do. I'm not talking about a "light" slice...I'm talking about a forceful, fluid, swift action with the edge that inflicts a deep, lascerating wound. Loads of katanaphiles tout their perferred sword's cutting ability to the point of wild exaggeration. But that doesn't mean a well-timed, well-placed slice can't be crippling. It can. In real, life-or-death swordplay, one always is "betting [one's] life."

I agree that throat slices are better than wrist slices if you wish from your example, face slices, not so much, the face has a lot of bone.
I'm a strong advocate of "do whatever you can, make sure it would end the fight" in sparring. If you have to sit there and argue about angles and force, it's clearly not decisive whereas many techniques are.


I'm an advocate of do it quick, make it decisive, too. But be careful. The German masters had a word for fencers who relied only on pure brute force, and it was not meant kindly: püffel, or "buffalo." All strength and no art, in other words. A true understanding of what is effective, and what is not in reality effective is difficult to attain somethines in sparring. The best solution is to suppliment with test cutting and other excercizes to increase proper understanding of good martial intent. But that shouldn't leasd you into tunnel vision.

Experiment. There's no shame in sticking to your convictions, of course. But I think you may be understestimating something else: psychological impact. There are few things more frighting than having a sharp object come right at your face, let alone having your face cut deeply by a sharp object. Then there's the blood, gettuing everywhere, and quite possibly in your eyes. The eyes themselves can ve vulnerable to slice to the face. Noses can be clipped off, or at least badly damaged. Don't underestimate it.

-B.

BTW, a nick or two in a sword will not effect it's slicing abillity against naked flesh at all. Just saying.

8)
Last edited by Brandon Paul Heslop on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thys beeth ye lettr yt stondÿ in hys sygte \

To teche . or to play . or ellys for to fygte...



"This [is] the letter (way,) [for] standing in his (the opponent's) sight \

[either] to teach, or to play, or else for fight..."



-Man yt Wol.

Chris Ouellet
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:38 am

Postby Chris Ouellet » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:53 am

Brandon Paul Heslop wrote:Not a primary form of attack, to be sure, but it can be an effective one in Blossfechten.

As long as we both agree it's not a primary form of attack then I have no issue. Perhaps I havn't been entirely clear and my forceful words taken out of context: all my comments must be taken in light of the original poster, who says: "Most non-ARMA videos seem to show a fair amount of winding that ends up sacrificing a solid footwork base just to get one's sword edge in contact with the other person's flesh in a sort of "smearing" of the edge on the opponent's flesh."
I've seen this many many times, hell I've even sparred against unskilled people who try do this i.e. reach out and touch you basically anywhere with their sword and pull/push and claim grievous injury would be inflicted.

Slices definitely have their place in sword fighting, but the target must be appropriately soft and the opponent unable to reply with greater injury to you should the slice be insufficient - because of all technique it can go the most wrong with little or no damage or shock induced.
The original poster legitimately inquires: "a lot of the "hits" to areas such as the shoulder, arm, and torso that I've seen in videos just don't seem to have the feet planted in order for such strikes to actually do any decisive (that is, win/loss determining) damage" and my reply is simply that: your impression is correct, random edge smearing is bad technique and not decisive, ineffective.

User avatar
Brandon Paul Heslop
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:56 am
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Contact:

Postby Brandon Paul Heslop » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:04 am

Slices definitely have their place in sword fighting, but the target must be appropriately soft and the opponent unable to reply with greater injury to you should the slice be insufficient - because of all technique it can go the most wrong with little or no damage or shock induced.
The original poster legitimately inquires: "a lot of the "hits" to areas such as the shoulder, arm, and torso that I've seen in videos just don't seem to have the feet planted in order for such strikes to actually do any decisive (that is, win/loss determining) damage" and my reply is simply that: your impression is correct, random edge smearing is bad technique and not decisive, ineffective.


We are agreed. I suppose where I jumped into "debate mode" was from this line: I have a strong opinion on this issue: slices are simply ineffective.

Not always.

:wink:

-B.
Thys beeth ye lettr yt stondÿ in hys sygte \

To teche . or to play . or ellys for to fygte...



"This [is] the letter (way,) [for] standing in his (the opponent's) sight \

[either] to teach, or to play, or else for fight..."



-Man yt Wol.


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.