Ochs vs Hanging guard?

[Randall Pleasant]

Master Liechtenauer was very clear about the guards he thought were safe. Master Liechtenauer did not consider a hanging to be a guard, much less a safe place to rest.

My understanding of Liechtenauer is that he was interested in simplification and not specifying each individual position. Therefore, he would consider the position of hangen ort to be a variation of ochs, and likewise, iron door to be a variation of alber.

Greg

No, Master Liechtenauer clearly specifies 4 positions as guards from which you fight, a hanging is not one of them. I understand you wanting to debate the issue but this is really the kind of thing we moved beyound 10 years ago. A hanging is not a guard, you cannot debate enough to make it so, it's just not in the teachings of Master Liechtenauer! Coming to a complete stop in a hanging (without adjusting into Ochs) as one might do in on of the four guards you can only expect to get hit, it's just bad swordsmenship.

[Greg Coffman]

Ran
I am not talking about hangen as a device. Granted, Liechtenauer only mentions hangen as a device that occurs from a bind. However, I am talking about the position of hangen ort, hanging point, which I have been taught is a distinctly different thing than Liechtenauer's hangen. Sometimes we use the word interchangeably but that is for shorthand, not to say that they are the same thing. Hanging point is a guard and it is described by Meyer (page 83 in the Forgeng translation):

"In the Onset, slash through forcefully up from your left against his face, in a wheel, once, twice; and the third time, let your sword swing before your face, or turn to the Hanging Point, as shown by the figure on the right in Image F on the previous page; and do this once or a few times until you see your opportunity to lay on with a device..."

First, Meyer lists Hanging Point in his regular listing of guards. Second, he advises one to stand in the guard and look for an opening. Third there is no bind involved like there would be with Leichtenauer's hanging. So I think I've made a case that hanging point is indeed a guard and can be used in the manner that I am advocating.

Goliath text from http://www.schielhau.org
(I believe they are translating krumphau as "arc strike")
page 37:
Another

You should also try the arc strike from the barrier guard, from either side, And thus set yourself in this guard: when you come to him in the pre-fencing, then stand with the left foot forward and hold your sword close on your right side with your point to the ground so that your long edge is above, and give an opening on the left side. If he strikes to the opening, then burst out from the strike with your right foot toward him well to your right side, And strike him with crossed hands, from the long edge with the point out to his hands.

Of the Barrier Guard

Put yourself thus in the barrier guard to your left side: when you come to him with it in the pre-fencing, then stand with the right foot forward and hold your sword near your left side to the ground with crossed hands, so the short edge is above, and give an opening with your right side, if he Strikes to your opening, then burst out of the strike toward him with the left foot well to his right side, and strike in the burst with the short edge over the hands.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

I posted the text to show an example where one of the manuals actually describe a technique where you start in shrankhut. My point is that it is okay to start in guards like shrankhut, hanging point, changer, nebenhut, iron door, or even kron. The secondary guards are just as legitimate as starting points as the primary guards of alber, pflug, ochs, and vom tag.

[Randall Pleasant]

Ran
I am not talking about hangen as a device. Granted, Liechtenauer only mentions hangen as a device that occurs from a bind. However, I am talking about the position of hangen ort, hanging point, which I have been taught is a distinctly different thing than Liechtenauer's hangen. Sometimes we use the word interchangeably but that is for shorthand, not to say that they are the same thing. Hanging point is a guard and it is described by Meyer (page 83 in the Forgeng translation):

"In the Onset, slash through forcefully up from your left against his face, in a wheel, once, twice; and the third time, let your sword swing before your face, or turn to the Hanging Point, as shown by the figure on the right in Image F on the previous page; and do this once or a few times until you see your opportunity to lay on with a device..."

First, Meyer lists Hanging Point in his regular listing of guards. Second, he advises one to stand in the guard and look for an opening. Third there is no bind involved like there would be with Leichtenauer's hanging. So I think I've made a case that hanging point is indeed a guard and can be used in the manner that I am advocating.

Greg

Ok, I understand you better now. I don't know Meyer that good but my understanding is that Meyer's HangingPoint guard, like his Key guard, is an variation of Ochs. Key is just an Ochs that has been lowered and HangingPoint is just an Ochs that has been moved somewhat over the head. In the quote you provided it is clear that Meyer is saying to go into a HangingPoint and look for an opening. But is this same text, or following texts, saying that you should actually stop in HangingPoint?

[Randall Pleasant]

I agree with Shane, and I'll add that hengen and schrankhut work best only when you're coming up or across your body into them with counterforce against a blow. You have to actively aim those defenses so that the blow lands on the strong. If you just stand there in those two guards and let me pick where I want to attack them, I'll take the weak and blow through them every time. If I do that, your only recourse is to void and counter before I pin your sword against you. I look at those two guards like car airbags - deploy them during a collision and they'll save you, but deploy them while driving and they'll cause a collision.

I've seen this type of argument before. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's wise. Hengen and schrankhut are defensive guards with the flat facing out and the point down, meaning they require extra motion to bring the offense to bear. Fractions of a second do make a difference. If you throw one of these guards out when I've committed my attack, then you stop it, spend my energy and give yourself the time needed to bring your offense around. If you put those guards out there before I attack, you just give me a chance to avoid them altogether and hit you somewhere else, forcing you to move your guard anyway or try to turn a compound attack (turn, aim and fire) against my simple attack (fire). If you're in ochs, pflug, vom tag, alber or nebenhut, you're already aimed and ready to fire. It's a faster reaction and a better deterrent than waiting in a defense that probably won't even be attacked. It doesn't take much wasted motion to be fatally wasted motion. Trust me, spar against Aaron P. a few rounds and see if you're still willing to risk it. I'm one of the fastest people in ARMA and I'm not.

Stacy

I must disagree with you on the Barrier guard. Not only can one krump into the Barrier in response to an attack it is clear from Goliath (see the quote below) that one may stand in the guard. In either case a possible counter attack one my use is a Krumphau. To attack the weak when someone is in the Barrier guard you would basically have to attack their feet. Also attacking the sword in Barrier guard will not result in you pinning it down because since its flat will be against you edge their counter krumphau will just slide off of your edge. If someone is standing in the Barrier guard would you really want to attack their sword? Or might one of the other three openings make a better target? The whole point of the Barrier guard is to close an opening so that an attack is sent to one of the other opening. Please note the following video at 0:49 seconds, JC not only uses a Barrier guard to parry an attack he also stays in the guard and parries a second attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FN ... re=related

Goliath text from http://www.schielhau.org
Put yourself thus in the barrier guard to your left side: when you come to him with it in the pre-fencing, then stand with the right foot forward and hold your sword near your left side to the ground with crossed hands, so the short edge is above, and give an opening with your right side, if he Strikes to your opening, then burst out of the strike toward him with the left foot well to his right side, and strike in the burst with the short edge over the hands.

[Greg Coffman]

I don't know Meyer that good but my understanding is that Meyer's HangingPoint guard, like his Key guard, is an variation of Ochs.

And that's what I said about hanging point being a variation of ochs just as iron door is a variation on abler.

But is this same text, or following texts, saying that you should actually stop in HangingPoint?

I think it says it in the text I quoted. You execute a series of attacks and then adopt the guard of hanging point until you have decided how you are going to attack next. It is okay to 'stop' in hanging point only in as much as it is okay to 'stop' in any other guard. You shouldn't just stop and wait in hanging just like you shouldn't stop and wait in ochs. But you should always be in a guard.

Here is another passage which I should have started with instead of the one I did. Forgeng, page 54:
"Hanging Point
The figure on the right in the same image [F] teaches you how to execute the Hanging Point, except that it does not show the arms extended enough. Therefore position yourself in this guard thus: stand with your right foot forward, and hold your weapon with arms extended in front of you such that the blade hangs somewhat down toward the ground. This position is quite similar to the Ox, except that in the Ox you hold the arms vertically, but here they shall be extended forward in front of your face, and you let the sword hang toward the ground, which is why it is called Hanging Point."

So Meyer even makes the connection that it is very similar to ochs.

Another relevant passage would be Meyer's introduction to his section on guards. Forgeng, page 52-53. There, Meyer states that zufechten (the beginning of the fight) is composed of two elements, guards and cuts. He says that you put yourself into a guard at the beginning of the fight and then lists all of the guards. He does say that there are four primary guards and the rest are derived from them, but this doesn't mean that the secondary guards function any different from the primary guards. The secondary guards are not only middle or ending positions of a strike or device. They are legitimate guards in their own right.

[Stacy Clifford]

Alright, based on the additional information provided along with quotes, it appears I'll have to stand corrected regarding schrankhut, so good job, I'm convinced. (And you're right Ran, I really wouldn't want to attack the schrank when there are openings elsewhere, but I've seen John point out that weakness of the barrier more than a few times and it stuck pretty well I guess.)

As far as hanging guard goes, apparently I've been talking about Liechtenauer's hanging and you've been talking about Meyer's, which is why we're reaching different conclusions. The hanging I've been referring to has the flat aimed outward and hangs across the body from one shoulder to the opposite hip and is very clearly a defensive position. After checking the plate in Meyer, I see the hanging you are talking about is basically a drooping ochs held further forward, but with the edge facing forward and not sloping across the body. Now that I know what you're looking at I can agree with you that I would consider Meyer's hanging to still be an offensive guard. I've been using Liechtenauer's guards a lot longer than Meyer's and I still default back to him when hearing overlapping terminology, so perhaps a bit more specific description and reference earlier might have saved us quite a bit of argument here.

I should add that I'm not disputing the usefulness of the other secondary guards, I fight from iron door and boar's tooth quite often with good success. Schrank is admittedly not one of my favorites, but I suppose I'll have to work on it more, all things considered.

[Randall Pleasant]

Alright, based on the additional information provided along with quotes, it appears I'll have to stand corrected regarding schrankhut, so good job, I'm convinced. (And you're right Ran, I really wouldn't want to attack the schrank when there are openings elsewhere, but I've seen John point out that weakness of the barrier more than a few times and it stuck pretty well I guess.)

I remember having a similar discussion with John. It's the left schrankhut that is less than idea due to the weakness of the hands being crossed. Such is why Fiore has Iron Door on the right but not the left and Boar's Tooth on the left but not the right. John told me that if I'm in right schrankhut and need to parry on my lower left opening then it's best to step (forward or backward) into Boar's Tooth since it will be stronger.

As far as hanging guard goes, apparently I've been talking about Liechtenauer's hanging and you've been talking about Meyer's, which is why we're reaching different conclusions. The hanging I've been referring to has the flat aimed outward and hangs across the body from one shoulder to the opposite hip and is very clearly a defensive position. After checking the plate in Meyer, I see the hanging you are talking about is basically a drooping ochs held further forward, but with the edge facing forward and not sloping across the body. Now that I know what you're looking at I can agree with you that I would consider Meyer's hanging to still be an offensive guard. I've been using Liechtenauer's guards a lot longer than Meyer's and I still default back to him when hearing overlapping terminology, so perhaps a bit more specific description and reference earlier might have saved us quite a bit of argument here.

I should add that I'm not disputing the usefulness of the other secondary guards, I fight from iron door and boar's tooth quite often with good success. Schrank is admittedly not one of my favorites, but I suppose I'll have to work on it more, all things considered.

I'm basically in the same boat as you. I'm still not fully convinced that Hanging Point is a good place to rest more than a micro-second.

[Richard Strey]

I don't know Meyer that good but my understanding is that Meyer's HangingPoint guard, like his Key guard, is an variation of Ochs. Key is just an Ochs that has been lowered and HangingPoint is just an Ochs that has been moved somewhat over the head. In the quote you provided it is clear that Meyer is saying to go into a HangingPoint and look for an opening. But is this same text, or following texts, saying that you should actually stop in HangingPoint?

Hi, Randall.
I'm going off on a tangent here, but I believe that the Schlüssel (Key) guard is actually rather a retracted Langort (Long Point), than a lowered Ochs (Ox). The blade comes to rest on your left arm, with both arms crossed. Had you just lowered from an Ox position, the cross would be further forward.

For reference:
Ochs: Image B left front (Meyer says so)
Schlüssel: Image D left front (Meyer says so)
Hangetort: Image F right front (I believe so)





Incidentally, you can check out the middle of image D to see a pressing of the hands performed.

[Michael Olsen]

Also of interest regarding the Schrankhut, should one be looking for an earlier source, Cod.HS.3227a (Dobringer) seems to imply the guard can be used to "wait in" as well:

One technique is called the fence guard (or barrier guard perhaps) [Schrankhute] and it comes from the point. You should place your point towards the ground on either side and then you are ready to displace. It can also be called from the gate [Pforten], when you place the point to the ground in front of you. When the opponent strikes or thrusts at you, then you push his point to the side as you raise the sword up and in towards you, and then strike him in the legs or above, whatever happens to be closest to hit. This resembles the peacock’s tail [Pfobenczangel] when you continuously go up and strike down, above or below wherever you can get at him.

[Randall Pleasant]

...I believe that the Schlüssel (Key) guard is actually rather a retracted Langort (Long Point)

Thanks!