"Lazy" vom tag

[Benjamin Smith]

I feel I ought to respond to that post with the Renaissance style picture. It's worth noting that the vast majority of Vom Tag are held much higher in the more typical positions. Most masters never show a lower position. This picture shows the fighters at ridiculously close distance. The man on the right's sword is almost touching the other guy's foot! I wish I could read Latin so I could offer an interpretation based on the text.

[Sam Nankivell]

Sam,

It seems to me that the "Posta Di Donna" as seen in these examples is more comparable to the "Zornhut." I haven't spent much time with the Italian though, don't know it (I only have poor Latin skills). I think a closer example of the "lazy" Vom Tag is the upper right in the second picture, which is actually a Kron. The biggest clue that posta di donna is not the same is that in Fiore, his head is turned with the sword behind his head (as I could see from your posted picture). With the weight on the back foot, that would indicate that one is going for a big strike (like the Zorn).

You're right, the top right one in the second picture does resemble kron (or a very tight zornhau). However, the top right posture in this plate from Flos Duellatorum depicts the "lazy" vom tag exactly: an over the shoulder posta di donna. Fiore gives us multiple variations of posta di donna, one of which is like zornhau (the behind the back donna) and one of which is like "lazy" vom tag (the over the shoulder donna).

[Stacy Clifford]

That picture still appears to depict the sword being held in the air above the shoulder though. The "lazy" vom tag mainly got its name from actually being rested on the shoulder. Holding it low and foward as Fiore shows it there does still restrict the power you can generate, but at least it doesn't restrict your range of motion and quick use of the false edge by directly obstructing it with your own body.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Which way is the head facing in the upper right of this picture from Fiore? It appears to be facing to the left (as I am looking at it - he is looking to the right) with the sword on his left shoulder and feet going to his left. This really is not a Vom Tag. Using Etymology (not always the best, I realize) this position in no way resembles a sun over a roof. It more looks like a VERY big wind up. According to the picture only, I cannot agree that this is the "lazy" Vom Tag. Do you happen to have the text that accompanies (meaning a translation as my Italian is non-existent).

The major defining characteristic of the lazy Vom Tag is that it is a regular Vom Tag, just dropped lower. This picture shows a complete change in footwork and in body mechanics, assuming the picture is correct (a stretch, I know) it has to be something different. I maintain that it is more likely a picture of the Zornhut than a lazy Vom Tag.

-Jeremiah (SA)

Sam,

It seems to me that the "Posta Di Donna" as seen in these examples is more comparable to the "Zornhut." I haven't spent much time with the Italian though, don't know it (I only have poor Latin skills). I think a closer example of the "lazy" Vom Tag is the upper right in the second picture, which is actually a Kron. The biggest clue that posta di donna is not the same is that in Fiore, his head is turned with the sword behind his head (as I could see from your posted picture). With the weight on the back foot, that would indicate that one is going for a big strike (like the Zorn).

You're right, the top right one in the second picture does resemble kron (or a very tight zornhau). However, the top right posture in this plate from Flos Duellatorum depicts the "lazy" vom tag exactly: an over the shoulder posta di donna. Fiore gives us multiple variations of posta di donna, one of which is like zornhau (the behind the back donna) and one of which is like "lazy" vom tag (the over the shoulder donna).

[Randall Pleasant]

The "lazy" vom tag mainly got its name from actually being rested on the shoulder.

In my observations many of the people who use Lazy Vom Tag will actually rested the short edge on their chest rather than upon their shoulder. Cuts are then made by extendign the right hand out without raising it. The result is a slow True Time cut.

[Greg Coffman]

I think there are at least four positions being discussed here. There is the vom tag above the head, a vom tag above either shoulder, a zornhut above either shoulder, and a guard held below the shoulder possibly with the blade resting on the shoulder or chest. It is only the last guard that I think of when I hear "lazy vom tag." When I started in ARMA, I was taught that vom tag was only above the head and that over the shoulder was called zornhut. However, since then I have been taught that it is till vom tag when over the shoulder and that in zornhut the blade is held slanting behind the back some. In ARMA we don't like zornhut and I think I would be strenuously corrected if somebody saw me use it. However, I regularly use a vom tag with the sword held over but not resting on my shoulder.

The lazy vom tag (as I understand it) is the one in von Danzig and also in Mair.
http://www.schielhau.org/images/pvd05.jpg
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00006570/images/index.html?id=00006570&fip=193.11.234.149&no=13&seite=53
We could argue that the von Danzig depiction suffers from poor artistic accuracy but I don't think that is the case since we see almost the same sword placement in Mair. This leads me to believe that the "lazy vom tag" is a legitimate guard or variation of a guard. But that in no way disqualifies our criticism of other groups that use it.

Ran is right about how other groups use the "lazy vom tag." They stand too close to one another and just throw the sword quickly and weakly into a bind. I'm all about 'finding the sword' and entering a bind, but you have to do this strongly firmly and with a solid attack. It is not that the groups are in error because they use a guard that we don't like, it is because they choose to use it in such a way that keeps them from having to fight with proper distance, force, intent etc.

[Randall Pleasant]

The lazy vom tag (as I understand it) is the one in von Danzig and also in Mair.
http://www.schielhau.org/images/pvd05.jpg
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00006570/images/index.html?id=00006570&fip=193.11.234.149&no=13&seite=53
We could argue that the von Danzig depiction suffers from poor artistic accuracy but I don't think that is the case since we see almost the same sword placement in Mair. This leads me to believe that the "lazy vom tag" is a legitimate guard or variation of a guard. But that in no way disqualifies our criticism of other groups that use it.

Greg

To the best of my knowledge none of the senior ARMA scholars interpret either of those images as actually showing the blade being rested on the shoulder. Thus, in no way what so ever do I consider the Lazy Vom Tag (LVT) to be a valid variation of Vom Tag. It is a wrong interpretation plain and simple and it negatively affects all of the other interpretations
developed through its use.

[Greg Coffman]

I don't think it is that plain and simple, Ran, based on seeing it in at least two source materials. The depiction in Mair cannot be overlooked due to poor illustration which then gives legitimacy to the depiction in von Danzig. Fiore also shows about the same position in the following link:
http://www.thearma.org/pdf/dlr3.jpg
Notice that the cross is below the shoulder, not above, which is different from a vom tag position held over the shoulder. In this drawing it would be possible for the blade to lay on the shoulder although that is not what it shows. To me, it is not so much about resting the sword on the shoulder or not. What matters is the position of the hands and cross relative to the shoulders. If the hands are held below the shoulders, then does it really matter if the blade rests on the shoulder or not?

[Stacy Clifford]

Yes I think it does matter if you rest it on the shoulder or not, for at least two reasons. The main one you can see by trying two cuts from that position, a false edge cut downwards through schrankhut and a zornhau over your head from left to right, and do them as quickly and powerfully as you can. Do it first holding the sword six inches in front of your shoulder at that level, and then again with it resting on your shoulder. From the forward position, neither your shoulder nor your head have to make any extra motion to get out of the way. From the resting position I have to drop my shoulder a bit or pull the sword off to the side on the downward cut to avoid slicing into my own shoulder, and on the zornhau I have to duck my head significantly to the side to avoid cutting my own ear off. One is an inefficient time waster and the other can throw your balance and aim off, neither of which are beneficial even without the friendly fire problems.

The second reason I admit is much more subtle, but when you are holding the sword in the air, your muscles are taut and primed and ready for action. When you rest the sword, they are slack. I find that starting with loose muscles makes it just a little bit more difficult to gain control over the sword for accuracy and edge placement when you have to launch the sword in any direction other than straight forward and down. It's a very small difference for me, but still enough that I notice it, and I think it only gets more exaggerated the less experience you have. It's just that difference between feeling slightly lackadaisical and feeling ready for action, and I'd say it's as much psychological as it is physical, but it's there.

As for the two drawings, in Von Danzig it really does look like it's resting on his shoulder and about to give himself a haircut, but when I look at the Mair drawing it looks pretty clearly to me like it is being held in front of the shoulder, but not resting on it. Given the angle of the wrist and cross in that picture I could only see it laying against him if it were flat down. To lay the edge against my shoulder in that position I have to bend my wrist more than the picture shows, and I think Mair's drawings are accurate enough to capture that kind of subtlety.

[Sam Nankivell]

Which way is the head facing in the upper right of this picture from Fiore? It appears to be facing to the left (as I am looking at it - he is looking to the right) with the sword on his left shoulder and feet going to his left. This really is not a Vom Tag. Using Etymology (not always the best, I realize) this position in no way resembles a sun over a roof. It more looks like a VERY big wind up. According to the picture only, I cannot agree that this is the "lazy" Vom Tag. Do you happen to have the text that accompanies (meaning a translation as my Italian is non-existent).

The major defining characteristic of the lazy Vom Tag is that it is a regular Vom Tag, just dropped lower. This picture shows a complete change in footwork and in body mechanics, assuming the picture is correct (a stretch, I know) it has to be something different. I maintain that it is more likely a picture of the Zornhut than a lazy Vom Tag.

-Jeremiah (SA)

Well, it seems you are right. I have just noticed that what I thought was a nose is actually an ear . Anyways, I looked through the transcription and translation of the Getty MS over at the Exiles and have discovered that I cannot find a posta di donna that looks exactly like a lazy vom tag only ones that look a bit like zornhaut, albeit slightly altered and possible either forward or back-weighted. However, the difference between a forward weighted zornhaut and lazy vom tag is very slight. The translation of that particular plate is not quite available yet, but I believe the Exiles are working on it.

[Greg Coffman]

However, the difference between a forward weighted zornhaut and lazy vom tag is very slight.

Personally, I find that the difference is the angle of the sword. In vom tag the sword is held upwards at around a 45 degree angle:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/37.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/40.jpg
While in zornhut the sword is held sloping down behind the back:
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/33.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/34.jpg

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

The purpose of the Zornhut is the generation of power for the Zornhau. A twisting of the body and a rear-weighting (as seen in Fiore) will be just as acceptable.

Interestingly, as I looked on the terms page (http://www.thearma.org/terms2.htm), posta di donna does have some characteristics of the LVT, though I think the donna is actually a bit higher WITHOUT resting the sword at all on the chest/shoulder.

-Jeremiah (SA)

[Greg Coffman]

I don't think the purpose of zornhut is only to throw a zornhau. That would be like saying the purpose of haning point is to catch the oppenents blade on your flat or like saying the purpose of pflug is to thrust from the hips. Zornhau is a guard just like the rest of them. And I don't really consider the twisting or rear weighting necessarily characteristic of the guard either. In this plate from Mair (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/34.jpg) the fighter is not twisting and is front weighted. You can lean forward or backwards in any guard.

I think the posta di donna has much more in common with a vom tag over the shoulder. LVT refers to a position where the hands are held below the shoulder with the blade resting on the shoulder or chest. There is a significant difference.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Perhaps we are not clear. The primary purpose of the Zornhut is the generation of power. That is acceptable as a purpose clause, just as the other definitions you offered are acceptable primary definitions. Are there other things that can be done from each position? Absolutely, however, there is almost always a primary purpose and/or reason for being in said position.

Having said that, what I was trying to get at was there is not a static definition of what the Zornhut is. It can be with the blade sloping down the back, or it can be a twisting of the body so that the blade is simply behind (perhaps parallel to the ground). Just as we can look at a pflug in x manual and note that it doesn't EXACTLY match y manual. So the point you make of the twisting not being necessary for the Zornhut, I completely agree with, but it is an acceptable form of it.

It might have been more accurate to say that the Zornhut is used for generating power for the strike (whatever that may be).

As for the posta di donna, I was going from the terms page, and I wasn't saying that they (donna and LVT) were the same. In fact I have maintained that they are different the whole time I have posted, I was merely conceding a certain amount of similarity. (Using Capitol letters I was trying to point out a large difference between Donna and LVT, which would make them different.)

Geeze, take a moment to see that I am not arguing here. My verbage is that of saying "it is acceptable" not that it is the only way. I am a firm believer that the manuals show a snapshot of a fluid thing (a fight). And so to use the techniques taught in the manuals we need to be fluid. Thus there is range in what is "acceptable" for a guard.

Perhaps instead of assuming I am saying something that goes beyond what is written you could ask for further clarification?

-Jeremiah (SA)

[Cooper Braun]

The lazy vom tag (as I understand it) is the one in von Danzig and also in Mair.
http://www.schielhau.org/images/pvd05.jpg
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00006570 ... 3&seite=53
We could argue that the von Danzig depiction suffers from poor artistic accuracy but I don't think that is the case since we see almost the same sword placement in Mair. This leads me to believe that the "lazy vom tag" is a legitimate guard or variation of a guard. But that in no way disqualifies our criticism of other groups that use it.

I have a slightly different point to throw in here. I was told by a friend of mine, and I have no idea were he heard it (yeah excellent source material ), that the von Danzig (and the Mair might be saying the same thing, though I don't have the translation) is actually showing a move as well as a guard. If you look at the von Danzig think about were the fighters were a moment ago. If the Man in Alber had just thrown a zornhue, and the man in Vom Tag had taken a passing step back and pushed his weight back on to his heels to void the strike, you get a picture similar to one in the picture. Now I have no idea if this is a legitimate translation of the image, but it does work to explain the image.
Does anyone have a translation of the Mair? What move is he talking about in the picture?