Question about the Teutonic Order...

[Scott W. Riley]

I recently discovered that I quite possibly have some bloodline ties to this monastic order, which is incredibly intriguing to me. I was wondering what type of fighting style would they have used?

I know it would be out of the German school, of course, but would they have used the techniques of Ringeck, Lichtenauer, Wallerstein, etc...? Any help in the 'right' direction would be greatly appreciated.

[Stacy Clifford]

The Teutonic Order was founded in the 1100s and went into decline after a major defeat in 1410, and we only have one manual (I.33) that dates earlier than 1389, so all of the masters we know of from every country came at the end of or after the Teutonic Knights' period as a major military power. They were still around of course, so it's reasonably likely that they would have encountered one or more of the German masters we know of, but there were many more masters we don't know of because they didn't write anything or their works didn't survive or haven't been found, so you can't really speculate on it very easily. The German mamuals also don't really differ from each other very much in terms of style, so all of them will likely get you close to what the Teutons actually used in the 1400s. In the hundreds of years before then, we can only await more discoveries.

[s_taillebois]

Also have to consider that although the Teutonic order had a middle eastern presence it was in Northern Europe they had the most influence. Like other orders their members may have come from other areas. During the period when crusading was still a major influence, the armor plated aristocracy was as likely to fulfill a crusaders vow in north eastern Europe or Spain as they were to go to the middle east. For example some English knights went to the German frontiers rather than to the East. So very probable whatever fight style they had whilst trained in their home countries is what they used when a member of the Teutonic Knights.
There may have been some variances in equipment however due to eastern influences. And because the Teutonic order effectively absorbed other orders in the area such as the Knights of Dobrzyn and the Livonian Knights its very probable the equipment and fighting style of these groups also affected the Teutonic order.

But it is interesting that equipment on the Prussian/Polish frontier maintains an eastern influence for some period of time. Polish helmets well into the 1560's had a distinctly eastern look.

And as M. Clifford notes the era when the Teutonic order was most influential is before the extant manuals. If one wanted to link a religious order to extant fight manuals it would be more so with the orders operating in Spain during the reconquista or in the Mediterranean . Such as the Santiagos and Knights of Saint John.

Incidentally the Teutonic order hung around as a military order until the Hapsburgs went under, and remains peripherally around as a confraternity within the Catholic Church. But unfortunately given the area of Teutonic power has had two world wars run through it, finding documents or fechtbuchs of the period in situ would be almost miraculous.

[Stacy Clifford]

And as M. Clifford notes the era when the Teutonic order was most influential is after the extant manuals.

You mean before the extant manuals?

[s_taillebois]

And as M. Clifford notes the era when the Teutonic order was most influential is after the extant manuals.

You mean before the extant manuals?

Yes, apologies missed that in proofreading.

Incidentally the Teutonic Knights supposedly restricted their later membership to noble Germanic families. But given the patchwork of marriages inherent to European nobility it wasn't likely too hard for knights from other areas to enter. Plus its probable that one could always fight with them to meet a crusader vow without formal inclusion.

However perhaps one of the European ARMA people could research what museums might be holding surviving weaponry from the Teutonic Knights, or images of the period. That might provide M. Riley with some additional information about local fighting styles. The problem is of course, the areas in which the TN operated are often areas where these knights had to be beaten to allow the rise of those nations. And that the decline of the TN closely correlated in time to the fall of the Templers, its likely that judicious nobility discretely removed items linking them too closely to these groups.

[Scott W. Riley]

Thanks for all of the help, guys. I've since learned of the Battle of Tannenberg in 1410 and basically, there were knights under one of my ancestor's surnames that fought and died there.

I've also learned that the Teutonic Order still exists, but now it's more of an order of monks in Germany and beyond. I'm really grateful for all of the input you guys have given. It's blown the dust off of my ancestors' past. Thank you all so much.

[Greg Coffman]

"Fighting style" in Europe is really a misnomer. Fighting was fighting and everyone pretty much did it the same way. Regional differences were more along the lines of vocabulary used to describe the guards, movements, etc., and preferences for different weapons (i.e. the Germans likes big swords and in Silver's day the Italians and Spanish liked the rapier).

The Teutonic Order were knights and so would fight the same as knights fought all over Europe. They were also composed of mostly Germans so they would like German knights fought.
Check this page on MyArmoury.com
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8309&highlight=oakeshott+german+knights

[Jake Glickfield]

I recently discovered that I quite possibly have some bloodline ties to this monastic order, which is incredibly intriguing to me. I was wondering what type of fighting style would they have used?

I know it would be out of the German school, of course, but would they have used the techniques of Ringeck, Lichtenauer, Wallerstein, etc...? Any help in the 'right' direction would be greatly appreciated.

How could you be descended from a monastic order? Aren't monks celibate?

[Randall Pleasant]

How could you be descended from a monastic order? Aren't monks celibate?

Everybody was something else before what they are today. A friend during graduate school often went to a convent to visit his grandmother, who was the Mother Superior of the convent. With the blessings of her adult children the woman became a nun after her husband died. I don't doubt that a number of the members of the Teutonic Order was men who were once married and had raised families.

[Stacy Clifford]

I believe the monks who wrote I.33 are considered to be most likely former soldiers.

[s_taillebois]

I believe the monks who wrote I.33 are considered to be most likely former soldiers.

It wasn't an unknown practice. Loyola for example-after being crippled by a cannonball elected to become a cleric. And in the Gothic/Renn era, it may have been politically expedient for some to become monks after being on the losing side of dynastic squabbles.

[Benjamin Parker]

And Celibacy in the Teutonic Order was basically 'Don't get caught' I remember reading on De Re Militari (The website) about a man who was going to join the Teutonics and so he moved in with 'The fairest girl in the village' and . . . You know. For an entire year. Then he joined the order took the vows and said he was a virgin and he joined up.

I also remember reading about the Knights of Saint John on Malta one of the Master ordered all the women moved to a seperate island so that in order to the visit his woman the Knight would have to go by boat and everybody would see and he would be castigated by his brother knights . . . The castigation consisted of his Brother Knights cheering and encouraging him as he rowed to the Island.

So it's very possible

(No offense met to you Scott)

[Jaron Bernstein]

I recently discovered that I quite possibly have some bloodline ties to this monastic order, which is incredibly intriguing to me. I was wondering what type of fighting style would they have used?

I know it would be out of the German school, of course, but would they have used the techniques of Ringeck, Lichtenauer, Wallerstein, etc...? Any help in the 'right' direction would be greatly appreciated.

I can't comment on that specific order, but a lot former knights "retired" to the church and became monks. There is some speculation that the I:33 was written by just such a fellow. I doubt their lives before taking holy orders were entirely pure and chaste.

[Randall Pleasant]

And Celibacy in the Teutonic Order was basically 'Don't get caught' I remember reading on De Re Militari (The website) about a man who was going to join the Teutonics and so he moved in with 'The fairest girl in the village' and . . . You know. For an entire year. Then he joined the order took the vows and said he was a virgin and he joined up.

I also remember reading about the Knights of Saint John on Malta one of the Master ordered all the women moved to a seperate island so that in order to the visit his woman the Knight would have to go by boat and everybody would see and he would be castigated by his brother knights . . . The castigation consisted of his Brother Knights cheering and encouraging him as he rowed to the Island.

So it's very possible

(No offense met to you Scott)

To quote one of my professors at The Catholic University of America, "Celibacy is a wonderful idea......if taken in moderation!"

And let us not over look the famous prayer by Saint Augustine, "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet".

[Benjamin Parker]

And of course Celibacy just means you can't get married it doesn't nessecarily equal Chaste. It says nothing about outside of marriage.