Wound Research

[Philip Sibbering]

Hello all,

Do any of you know any good and comprehensive source material (book or online) about the effectiveness of wounds delivered by hand weapons, arrows, etc.

I know the Romans stated that a 2" stab to the solar plexus is fatal, but how long to die? Shock? What stab wounds to other areas? Or other types of wound? Bleed out times? A warriors effectiveness when suffering various wounds.

Something along the lines of a 'Gladiator's instruction guide' or 'wounds of the longsword' discussing the effectiveness of striking various areas, what to expect if you do hit certain areas, how disabled the target really is, and follow up techniques to take advantage of a wounded opponent.

Diagrams would be nice to, and any other info - something like the film Spartacus where they mark him up with paint etc.

Also information on anomalies would be interesting - for example, this about arrow wounds and other injuries.

Anything and everything about wounds in combat!

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Philip

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Hello!

There is an article about this subject in Spada 2 (sample pages 3-5 show some of it). There is also a pair of articles on the web: The Dubious Quick Kill,
part 1 and part 2. Generally I don't read these in depth because I don't like medical texts

The gist of it is that it is very hard to be sure of the effects. A modern account of a dumb move with rapiers also shows that there is some variability...

I remember the spartacus scene But it is overly simplistic, as even cuts to the legs can mean a quick death (though perhaps not instant death).

[terry brown]

Hello all,

Do any of you know any good and comprehensive source material (book or online) about the effectiveness of wounds delivered by hand weapons, arrows, etc. Philip

>
Philip,
>
An excellent source for such information are coroners rolls/records because of the serious nature of the crimes in question the fatal wounds are invariably described in great detail. They often also give details of how long it took the victim to die. They even give the value of the murder weapon (something to do with it's confiscation value). It seems cheap swords kill as quickly as expensive ones
>
True you will have to do the work yourself but it is both interesting and rewarding. Just type Coroners rolls in your search engine and away you go.

[s_taillebois]

The research done by the people at the Towton burials might be of some assistance. It would give the specifics of the effect of wounds, but not specific times to expire because of the nature of the evidence. And also because many of those men were probably already wounded, or prisoners who were killed in the latter stages of the fight.

As Mr. Brown noted coroners records would be of use, although it is comparatively rare in modern times for people to be killed with such as a gladius, some modern weapons would have a like effect. The old court records from the Hue and Cry days would be very useful-given that was the period these weapons were in common usage, and that community members were required by law and custom to interdict (or at least be out to observe, incidents were noise was made) Also, might check the stories about sanctuary stones, as no doubt those who couldn't make it, were noted in local chronicles.

One possibility would be to look at period images. For example in the Roman period (prior to Constantine) checking the scenes of such as Trajan's column or the Gladiator mosaics at Vesuvius would be useful. For later sources, there are any number of Romanesque, Gothic and early modern images which show where into and how into the body weapons were applied.

How disabled someone might be, or how long to die, would be incredibly variable given the inherent nature of the weapons, people involved and environment. So the best which could be expected is a estimate based on various sources.

[Stacy Clifford]

One of John Clements' upcoming books (don't ask me which one or when it comes out, I don't know) will feature large amounts of wound research from the records of the period, including coroner's records.

[s_taillebois]

Another potential source, albeit somewhat obscure would be illustrations or manuals relating to the treatment of battlefield, brawl, or tourney wounds.

In regards to lethality, it seems during the earlier period the wound which gave them the most troubles were thrust wounds. These may not have been immediately debilitating but seemed to have been very difficult for them to treat after the fact.

Another factor in how disabling a wound might have been, could have been a consideration related to class. The armor plated aristocracy tended to be ransomed, and so may have 'quit sooner' when finally wounded by another aristocratic opponent. Or if their henches could keep them covered were more likely to be removed from the field when wounded.

The yeomanry however were not ransomed, and often left on the field until the matter was resolved (if their side lost, well time to murder the immobile and men of no worth). That combined with their generally poorer physical condition, might have had a role in how they behaved when wounded. Usually if any of the yeomanry were still up whilst wounded and their lines had fallen back, the second or third ranks of the enemies troops would have murdered many as they passed. In that context men who were debilitated but not dead and in other contexts would have survived, certainly died. Which could skew your research, given that many of these would have been impact wounds to the head, finishing off already incapacitated men. The Towton research seems to indicate that that type of act was fairly common.

Plus whatever such as the Viking Beserkers were taking would have been a factor, being somewhat insulated from pain (and possibly shock) could have changed the effect of what would have otherwise been a pain debilitating wound. (Incidentally the evidence on the mushrooms is inconclusive, it appears the dosage high enough to have a narcotic effect, also would cause serious nausea).

Also M. Sibbering another element you'd need to research in this somewhat gruesome topic is the effect of blunt force weapons. There's been some demonstrations (using ballistics gel and armor) that a solid blow with a war hammer, halberd, lead maul or etc might have caused trauma injuries by the shock waves through the body. (some examples are shown on clips from BBC available here in the US-but unfortunately the entire programs are seemingly unavailable).

Much of your initial questions seem to have directed to piercing or cutting weapons...but for both the upper orders (war hammers, maces and etc) and the lower orders (lead mauls, staffs etc) impact weapons were used fairly frequently. (And in one incident roof tiles, a contingent of armored fighters on horse, were tricked into going into a narrow street. The locals managed to kill several by hurling roof tiles down upon them).

And related to the less immediate effects of wounds, given the general poor sanitation of medieval towns, the isolation within those areas during sieges, and the reliance on the horse, oxen and etc...it could be that something resembling gas gangrene could have been a factor in the long term survivability of wounds. Conjecture obviously...but it could partially explain the early use of cauterization of serious slash and cut wounds.

[terry brown]

s_taillebois wrote:
>
'As Mr. Brown noted coroners records would be of use, although it is comparatively rare in modern times for people to be killed with such as a gladius, some modern weapons would have a like effect.'
>
Hi,
I am probably misunderstanding you but just in case I'm not I was not actually referring to modern coroners records (as in the present century) but those from centuries ago.
>
The Battle of Towton documentary (an excellent programme) actually shows a previously unsuspected level of medical knowledge and battlefield treatment but it was too long ago for me to remember specifics.
>
Best wishes,
Terry

[Philip Sibbering]

Thank you one and all, this has been most enlightening!

Hello Vincent Le Chevalier,

I shall did through these medical text! Thank the links I'm sure they will get me off to a flying start I love the film Spartacus too, but I concede you are right about the simplicity, but the concept seems to be interesting as 'first basics'. I was wondering how factual - if any - it was?


Hello Terry Brown,

A fantastic idea! (I've read the thread so I know you mean old rolls), it didn't even occur to me! Thanks. I'm sure it will prove very interesting, do you have a link to a good place to start?


Hello S Taillebois,

I heard about the Towton burials but didn't put two and two together, I'll google it now.

You are right about variability, and that's why I'm also interested in written accounts or manuals that are more an instruction of what a fighter is going for, and what they were expect. I'm just finding it hard to locate such material!


Hello Stacy Clifford,

I check Amazon and see if there are any clues, or is there an announcement somewhere on this site?


@ s_taillebois: Do you have any links to 'illustrations or manuals relating to the treatment of battlefield, brawl, or tourney wounds' at hand? It sounds like it may have clues.

You raise some interesting points, and I shall think on them, and muse on mushroom stuff Vikings going nuts

In answer to the point you raise, I am interested in all types of wound; including blunt trauma. I'm more interested in the initial 'disablement' effect of a wound (as if disabled a follow up is much easier, and so disabled will often = death (as you point out)).

"some examples are shown on clips from BBC available here in the US-but unfortunately the entire programs are seemingly unavailable"
Do you mean 'Weapons that made Britain"? I've seen it and it's very interesting.


@ terry brown: It is encouraging to hear that the medical knowledge of the time was better than most expected, do you know of anywhere I can buy a copy of The Battle of Towton documentary?


Thanks to you all, I was stumped and this really help me to get on a mission!

Best wishes,

Philip

[Stacy Clifford]

There's no announcement for John's book, I just know some of what he's working on. I don't know how soon he'll be ready to publish.

By the way, numerous manuals, rapier manuals in particular, mention that a thrust to the vital organs of the chest only has to be "three fingers deep" or some similar measure to cause death. George Silver also comments on thrusting and how it's possible to survive many (poorly placed) and still keep fighting, while cuts are more quickly disabling. I believe there's another recent thread here that covers this topic in more detail.

[terry brown]

Hello Terry Brown,

A fantastic idea! (I've read the thread so I know you mean old rolls), it didn't even occur to me! Thanks. I'm sure it will prove very interesting, do you have a link to a good place to start?

@ terry brown: It is encouraging to hear that the medical knowledge of the time was better than most expected, do you know of anywhere I can buy a copy of The Battle of Towton documentary?

Best wishes,

Philip

>
Philip, I enclose a copy of some records I had in my files, there are enough examples to get you going. These are relatively later period but you can search much further back than this if you wish to:-
>
The Court in Session
>
Quarter Sessions Indictments - ref. QSI
>
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f4v (28) - date: 24 December 40 Eliz. 1597
Presentment: Thomas Hall and Andrew Hall, Scotsmen; murdered Fardinand Reveley at Beneley, and Thomas Hall drew his sword worth 5s. holding it in his right hand and gave Fardinand Reveley a fatal wound on the top of his head eight inches long and six inches deep so that Fardinand Reveley died instantly at Beneley and Andrew Hall was an accessory.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f7r (44) - date: 10 August 43 Eliz. 1601
[from Scope and Content] Indictment: Arthur Armstrong of Whytfeild, a Scot, yeoman; murdered Robert Farelam at Munckrydg with a sword worth 2s., giving him a fatal mortal wound four inches deep and two inches long so that he died instantly
.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f10r (62) - date: 20 November 23 Eliz. 1580
Indictment: William Rydley, alias Slack Will, of Hawcupp, yeoman; at Cattreyn struck William Rydley with a sword worth 2s., on the forehead giving him a mortal wound four inches deep and three inches long and killing him instantly. He also gave him a similar wound on the tibia three inches long and four inches deep from which he died if not from the previous blow.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f12v (75) - date: 20 March 40 Eliz. 1598
Indictment: Robert Muschampe (Musgrove scored through) f. of Barmore, yeoman; at Bowden, or a place called Longsyde" murdered Thomas Smythe of Bowden with a sword worth 6s., using his left hand and making a wound two inches long and half inch deep. Smythe languished at Bowden till he died on 10 April.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f14r (82) - date: 21 November 44 Eliz. 1601
Presentment: Cuthbert Alder, f. of Newton by the Sea, yeoman; William Swanne of Newton by the Sea, yeoman; murdered Patrick Darling on Newton More near Newton by the Sea with "an iron fork" worth 4d. which William held in his right hand, striking him on the back of his head "on the harne panne of his head", and giving him a fatal wound one inch long and two inches deep from which Patrick Darling died two hours later., and further, with a drawn sword worth 2s. in his right hand, Cuthbert Alder struck him "upon the calfe of his left legg" giving him another fatal wound four inches long and three inches deep from which he would have died if not from the wound of William Swanne.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f23v (141) - date: 16 November 42 Eliz. 1600
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Nicholas Snowden f. of Plemmeller, yeoman; at the Abbey gate, Hexham murdered Robert Martyn with a sword worth 5s., giving him a fatal wound on the head five inches long and three inches deep. Robert Martyn languished at Hexham from 16 November to 4 December when he died, having received a further blow on the head which would also have been fatal, four inches deep and three inches long. Elizabeth Martyn f. of Westerhowses, spinster, alias Elizabeth Martyn, wife of the said Robert Martyn, knowing him to be murdered, on the 26 July at the castle of Newcastle upon Tyne received feloniously 38s., through Hugh Ridley, senior, part payment of £15 from an unknown man to conceal evidence against Nicholas Snowdon.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f24v (143) - date: 20 January 44 Eliz. 1602
[from Scope and Content] at Scren wood murdered William Horsley, Robert Selby striking him with a sword worth 10s. on the left side of his head and giving him a fatal wound ten inches long and three inches deep so that he languished from 20 January to 27 January when he died. The others were accessories.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f25v (146) - date: 6 June 44 Eliz. 1602
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Thomas (Bee) of (Bradwedhall) gentleman; at Allendale broke into the dwelling of Cuthbert Howden of Cattonlee yeoman, "betwixt two and three of the clock in the mornyng" wounding Michael Grame of Catton lee, labourer, and Cuthbert Sheele of the same place, labourer, with a sword worth 2s., and stole the said sword, the property of Cuthbert Sheele.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f25v (148) - date: 21 November 44 Eliz. 1601
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Cuthbert Alder f. of Newton by the Sea, gentleman; William Swanne, f. of Newton by the Sea, yeoman; murdered Patrick Darling on Newton Moore near Newton by the Sea, William Swanne striking him "on the hynder part of his head" with "an iron forke" worth 4d., and giving him a fatal wound one inch long and two inches deep from which he died after languishing for two hours. And Cuthbert Alder also gave him a fatal blow "upon the calfe of his left legg" with a sword worth 2s., leaving a wound four inches long and three inches deep.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f26r (149) - date: 29 January 44 Eliz. 1602
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Thomas Errington f. of Swinburne castle, gentleman at Chollerton murdered Cuthbert Hunter with a sword, giving him a fatal wound on the tibia three inches long and one inch deep from which he died after languishing from 29 January to 2 May at Swinburne castle
.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f28v (159) - date: 16 August 36 Eliz. 1594
Presentment: George Hall of Burdup, yeoman; John Hall of Langshawe, alias Nickes Jock, yeoman at Cowdon Knowes murdered Egrevanus Horsley, f. of Milborne, gentleman. George Hall, with a sword worth 6s., giving him a fatal wound of his back two inches long and ten inches deep so that he died instantly, also John Hall, with a sword worth 5s. gave him a fatal wound six inches long and four inches deep on his shin.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f33r (183) - date: 11 February 1 James I 1604
Presentment: On Sunday, 5 February, James Edward Ladyman, John Ladyman and Thomas Ladyman being at Warkwythe parke, there came there at about 10 a.m. Thomas Clerke of Alnwycke, tynker, John Fynche of Warkwyth, gentleman, Clement Hewytson of Warkwyth, yeoman, Richard Hall of Warkwyth, yeoman, who attacked the Ladyman's, Thomas Clerke with his sword worth 6s.8d., murdering Edmund Ladyman with a fatal wound on the left side of his head seven inches long and three inches deep, so that he languished from 5 February to 11 February when he died. John Fynche, Clement Hewytson and Richard Hall were accessories.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f33r (184) - date: 6 February 1 James I 1604
Presentment: On 5 February, 1 James, while John, Thomas and Edward Ladyman were at Warkwyth parke about 2p.m., there came John Fynche of Warkwyth, gentleman, Clement Hewytson of Warkwyth, yeoman, Richard Hall of Warkwyth and Thomas Clerke of Alnwyck, tincklor, Thomas Clerke giving John Ladyman a fatal wound seven inches long and two and a half inches deep with his sword worth 6s.8d., so that he died within the hour. John Fynche, Clement Hewytson and Richard Hall were accessories.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f35r (195) - date: 31 March 44 Eliz. 1602
Presentment: John Hall f. of Caston, yeomanat Caston stole from John Jack a sword worth 9s., a dagger worth 6s.8d., "a pare of plate sleves" worth 4s., a woman's woollen dress worth 13s., three tables worth 3s.4d., each, four pairs of blankets worth 5s.each pair, and one "handgun" worth 13s.4d.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f45r (252) - date: 25 February 42 Eliz. 1600
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Richard Urwen f. of Greatney, Scotland, yeoman, at Sladen in the parish of Symonkburne, on the King's highway, attacked and wounded Mathew Robson and stole from him one grey mare worth £6, one cloak worth 20s. one sword worth 10s. and 18s. in money.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f45v (256) - date: 2 November 2 James I 1603
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Thomas Fenwyck f. of Stanton, gentleman; William Delavall f. of Bolam, gentleman; Richard Fenwyck f. of Rodeley, yeoman, at Morpeth, murdered Hector Unthanke, Thomas Fenwyck with a sword worth 5s. giving him a fatal blow on the head seven inches long and three inches deep, so that he languished to 10 November when he died. William Delavall and Richard Fenwyck were accessories.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f54r (300) - date: 9 September 43 Eliz. 1601
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: William Talboys f. of Alnwyck, yeoman; Robert Davyson of Alnwyck, yeoman at Cawledge Parke Alnwyck, murdered Roger Smythe f. of Alnwycke, merchant, William Talboys striking him with a sword worth 5s. and giving him a wound in the stomach one inch wide and five inches deep, so that he languished and died 14 September. Robert Davyson was an accessory on and after 7 September.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f55v (310) - date: 20 August 32 Eliz. 1590
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: John Hall f. of Langshawe, yeoman with other persons unknown at Kemlespeth, in the parish of (Ulsdale) murdered Egreven Horsley with a sword worth 6s., giving fatal wound three inches wide and eight inches deep so that he died instantly.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f66r (355) - date: 23 November 34 Eliz. 1591
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: William Rydley, alias black will f. of Hetherton, yeoman; at Burtley, murdered George Atchyson with a sword worth 10s., giving him a fatal wound on the right side of his head five inches long and five inches deep so that he died instantly.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f73r (385) - date: 18 September 5 James I 1607
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Edward Scott f. of Newcastle upon Tyne, yeoman; between 4 and 5 p.m., on the King's highway near Glanton feyldes in the parish of Whyttingham, assaulted with intent to kill, Thomas Thompson of Morpeth, tanner, with a sword worth 10s., so that his life was despaired of.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f77v (410) - date: 29 March 1 James I 1603
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: John Errington f. of Bavington, gentleman; at Matfen, on the king's highway, assaulted Mark Harryson and robbed him of one sword worth 6s., six "blewe" caps worth 7s., and 33s., in money.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f83r (427) - date: 29 May 6 James I 1608Gavin Read f. of le brigg howses, yeoman murdered John Read f. of (Trowghwhen) at a place called (Todelughefoot) with a sword worth 5s., giving him a fatal wound on the left shin below the calf five inches long and two inches deep and another there three inches long and one inch deep from which he died instantly. Other wounds given by Gavin Read: on the left shin two inches long and one inch deep; on the left shin above the knee three inches long and two inches deep; on the left arm near the brachial (elbow?) two inches long and two inches deep, from all of which he would have died.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f91v (460) - date: 21 November 44 Eliz. 1601
Presentment: Cuthbert Alder f. of Newton by the sea, gentleman William Swanne of Newton by the sea, yeoman; murdered Patrick Darlinge on Newton more near Newton by the sea in that William Swanne assaulted him with "an iron forke" worth 4d., giving him a fatal wound on "the hynder part of his head" one inch long and two inches deep from which he died at Newton by the sea after languishing on the point of death for two hours. Cuthbert Alder struck Patrick Darlinge on "uppon the calfe of his left legg" with a sword worth 2s., giving him another fatal wound four inches long and three inches deep which would also have killed him. Florentine Forster of Newton by the sea, gentleman, was an accessory before the fact.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f110r (529) - date: 8 September 9 James I 1611
Presentment: Anthony Pott f. of Yeardupp, yeoman;Robert Pott of Yeardupp, yeoman; George Pott f. of Whitside, yeoman; at Galley Edge in Ridsdale, murdered Jasper Pott, Anthony Pott giving him a fatal wound on his right; side three inches long and seven inches deep with;a sword worth 13s.4d., so that he died instantly. Robert Pott and George Pott were accessories. Mychaell Pott of Elisham entertained them afterwards; on the same day at Elisham.

item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f125v (585) - date: 28 June 10 James I 1612
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Robert Hall f. of Collell hill, yeoman; at Jennett Laidleys syke, Elsden, murdered Andrew Spurre with a sword worth 5s., giving him a fatal wound on the right breast two inches long and lour inches deep, from which he died instantly.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f136r (617) - date: 26 June 12 James I 1614
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Arthur Radcliffe f. of Rothbury, gentleman; John Radcliffe f. of Rothbury, gentleman; Edward Hall f. of Fallowleis, gentleman; Robert Pott f. of Moreley hirst, yeoman; at Rothbury, murdered William Hall f. of Heppall, yeoman, Arthur Radcliffe, with a sword worth 6s.8d., giving him a fatal wound on the back of his head four inches long and half an inch wide, which pierced his brain so that he languished until 7 July following, when he died. John Radcliffe, Edward Hall and Robert Pott were accessories.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f154r (710) - date: 22 October 13 James I 1615
[from Scope and Content] Indictment: George Armorer, John Brocket, William Tood and John Chator of Calliley, yeoman; Daniell Pringle of Davysheill hoope within the liberties of Riddesdaile, labourer; James Amsley of Alenton, petichapman; on the King's highway near Callelley about 10 p.m., assaulted Anthony Pott of Little Tosson, yeoman, and Thomas Readhead of Routhbury forest, yeoman, and stole one brown mare worth £4, one woollen hood worth 13s.4d., and one sword worth 10s., from Anthony Pott and one grey mare worth £5 from Thomas Readhead; Q valor over pretis scored through.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f158r (728) - date: 29 June 14 James I 1616
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Ralf Forster f. of Fleetham, gentleman; Nicholas Forster f. of Newham, gentleman; John Forster f. of Fleetham, gentleman; Florence Forster f. of Buston, gentleman; Robert Alder f. of Hobberlawe, gentleman; Mark Mossett f. of Fleetham, yeoman Oswald Yonghusband f. of Fleetham, yeoman; at Ellington in Haghead close, murdered Thomas Swynhoe esquire, a justice of the peace. Ralf Forster with a sword worth 2s., gave him a fatal wound near the right knee six inches long and three inches deep and another fatal wound above the left knee which severed his leg, so that he languished until 12 midnight when he died. The other persons were accessories.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f171r (793) - date: 11 June 15 James I. 1617

[from Scope and Content] Presentment: George Eiles of (Ciminggarth) yeoman; at a certain place on the King's highway near Morpeth new milne, on the instigation of Claude Rey of West Chevingtone, assaulted Robert Patterson of West Chevington, yeoman, wounding him with a sword worth 5s., on the left arm, so that he lost the use of the arm.
item: [no title] - ref. QSI/1, f192v (883) - date: 11 December 5 Charles I. 1629
[from Scope and Content] Presentment: Roger Snowdon of Heppell, yeoman; at Hallistone, assaulted and wounded Robert Lumsden of Porsholes with a sword worth 6s.0d.


FILE - Valentine Broughton, Mayor, Richard Birkenhead, Recorder - ref. QSF/35 - date: 1584-5
Presentment by the jury that Henry Lawnce of Winwicke [Winwick] co. Lancaster, gent., aided and helped by Thomas Jefford of Chiddington [?Cheddleton], co. Stafford, gent., Richard Hodgeson of Winwicke, co. Lancaster, yeoman, and Knockin Ahamoughe alias Smulkin of Chiddington, co. Stafford, yeoman, on 16 Jan. 1583/4 at Chester with a sword called 'an arminge sworde' wounded Henry Glaseor in the Head, from which wound the said Henry died. [?Billa vera] Damaged and incomplete.

51. Verdict of the jury in the case of Thomas Stile of Eaton, Cheshire, who on 22 Sept. 1602/3 after walking and talking with William Minshale in Northgate Street between the hours eleven and one, and being attacked by the said William Minshale with a sword and dagger, drew his own sword and dagger and with his sword, worth 18d., killed the said William Minshale, the wound being 10 inches deep and 1 inch wide. Verdict: Manslaughter.

FILE - Thomas Maddock and Thomas Houghton on John Almond, labourer, killed by John Meredith who broke his skull with the hilt of a sword at the house of Edward Oulton, brewer, without the Northgate. - ref. QCI/19/3 - date: Nov. 30th 1715

FILE - Charles Bingley on John Jones, soldier in Col Cholmondoley's Regiment, Captain Lee's Company, murdered with a hanger -short sword- by another solder in General Barrell's Regiment. - ref. QCI/21/4 - date: April 22nd 1741
>
As for the Towton programme I would look it up and see if the TV company has it on sale.
>
Best wishes,
Terry

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Philip,

If you are able to read French, there is also some info in the book Croiser le fer, pp. 331-349. This is based on French coroners' reports, but from the smallsword era mainly. Some of the diagrams can be seen in the book preview.

Glad to help!

[s_taillebois]

"I am probably misunderstanding you but just in case I'm not I was not actually referring to modern coroners records (as in the present century) but those from centuries ago. "

Actually it was poor phrasing on my part. Was trying to make it clear to the OP that modern coroners reports were of less value than the older court reports, and reports of the period coroners which were written in the period of common use of swords and etc. So the period documents you stated were the place to research.

So M. Brown apologies are due on my part for poor writing on my responses, which obscured the clarity of the statements you had made about coroners.

Incidentally it could be an interesting mix of information on ancient coroners reports. For some weird reason sometimes was old women who were hired to ascertained the cause of death (especially in times of plague and other disruptions) and I wonder how many of them were literate. Or if it was a common practice to have them give a verbal report to clergy, or a Sheriff or other local official working for the aristocracy?

[s_taillebois]

"some examples are shown on clips from BBC available here in the US-but unfortunately the entire programs are seemingly unavailable"
Do you mean 'Weapons that made Britain"? I've seen it and it's very interesting."

M. Sibbering Yes, the various demonstrations that Mike Loades had done in "Weapons that Made Britain". Unfortunate that BBC doesn't distribute some of their better history programming in the US, often its quite good.

Especially compared to what we get here, which when dealing with swords and period weapons is often either 'hosanna a katana' or the Spike TV type of thing...

[terry brown]

"I am probably misunderstanding you but just in case I'm not I was not actually referring to modern coroners records (as in the present century) but those from centuries ago. "

Actually it was poor phrasing on my part. Was trying to make it clear to the OP that modern coroners reports were of less value than the older court reports, and reports of the period coroners which were written in the period of common use of swords and etc. So the period documents you stated were the place to research.

So M. Brown apologies are due on my part for poor writing on my responses, which obscured the clarity of the statements you had made about coroners.

Incidentally it could be an interesting mix of information on ancient coroners reports. For some weird reason sometimes was old women who were hired to ascertained the cause of death (especially in times of plague and other disruptions) and I wonder how many of them were literate. Or if it was a common practice to have them give a verbal report to clergy, or a Sheriff or other local official working for the aristocracy?

>
Thanks for the clarification. As regards the 'old women' that was totally unknown to me so thanks for passing that on.
>
Best wishes,
Terry

[LafayetteCCurtis]

There's also this RPGnet article that, while mostly directed at fiction writers and roleplaying GMs, still contains a huge wealth of medical information of a more general interest:

http://www.rpg.net/columns/medical/medical1.phtml

and a post from a medievalist's blog, which provides links to two highly useful texts:

http://writemedieval.livejournal.com/3551.html

BTW, the book on the forensic-archeaological exploration of Towton is titled Blood Red Roses, just in case anybody is interested in checking it out.