Bolognese swordsmanship videos

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I. Hartikainen
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Bolognese swordsmanship videos

Postby I. Hartikainen » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:15 am

Hi!

I have already posted these on other forums, but thought that maybe there would be people interested here as well.

Defenses from the guard Coda Longa
Defenses from the guard Porta di Ferro
Defenses from the guard Gaurdia d'Alicorno

Some free play

Solo form (Manciolino's Primo Assalto)

You can also watch all videos directly at Vimeo or (if you have trouble with Vimeo) some of them on Youtube.

Yours,
Ilkka

Jonathan Newhall
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Postby Jonathan Newhall » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:46 am

Very high quality videos! I am personally not much into one-handed cut and thrust, but they are still good to watch :D

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:24 pm

Nice. I have a few questions though.

First, when doing the drills there were a good amount of times where the second attack of the drill appeared to be very weak. Are these designed to be provoking cuts, inhibited due to the speed of the drill, or tricks of the camera.

Second, what's up with the guy who kept the buckler longer? He almost seems to be afraid of the other guy.

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Postby I. Hartikainen » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:41 am

Sal,

can you please elaborate on the first question - what are you referring to with second attack? None of the attacks or strikes on those videos are done with too much vigor. Look at it more as if a technical demosntration. But I really am not sure what you mean by second attack?

As to your second question - I guess I am scary. :D

- Ilkka

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:34 am

LOL I'll remember that.

I'll post specifics later this week when I have more time to sit and get time markers.

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I. Hartikainen
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Postby I. Hartikainen » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:03 pm

Sal,

I'd love it if you actually went through the trouble of commenting on specifics. But be warned, the answer will possibly be something in the lines of "yes, maybe we could work on getting that a bit better". :)

But I'll of course try to answer any questions you may have!


Yours,
Ilkka

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JeremyDillon
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Postby JeremyDillon » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:12 pm

Cool cool cool. Thanks for posting these. I was wondering if you could provide some specifics on the equipment. Specifically the protective stuff. What all are you wearing?

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:35 pm

I'd really like to see these drills performed at speed with more intent. While I understand it's more to show basics, I've always found it easier to grasp the technique when it is done at the "speed of fight" so to speak.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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Postby I. Hartikainen » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:54 pm

Jeremy,

we are wearing Triplette's (or Zen Warrior Armory's) SCA-type fencing jackets (http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/catalog ... egory%3D63), which are without the groin straps. Swords are customized Darkwood swords, the one I am using has a Del Tin blade.

Allen,

yes, sure. This will be easier when we will eventually make videos showing how the attacks really should be made - the direct attacks are not favored in the system. But was there something particular that was difficult to grasp? I may be able to help.

Yours,
Ilkka

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:30 am

Nothing was difficult to grasp nor was I wanting a direct attack. I was just wanting to see them done with marital intent. The slow drill can only take you so far.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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Postby I. Hartikainen » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:00 am

Allen,

yes, of course. This is by no means how we practice usually. These vids show a direct from text to action -interpretation.

The whole idea of practicing short Bolognese pair drills slowly is not very good - there's a bunch of solo drills longer pair forms that set your movements right, but the actual way of fighting is very much about feints and being quicker and more clever than your opponent. It just doesn't work too well in slow speed, unless both practitioner's really know what they are doing. But this applies only when basic actions can be executed smoothly enough not to fall apart at speed.

- Ilkka

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:08 am

I. Hartikainen wrote:but the actual way of fighting is very much about feints and being quicker and more clever than your opponent.


Interesting, Di Grassi a few decades after Marozzo comes out very explicitly against feinting in deadly combat (True Play), although he includes a False Play section in the back for school fighting. Does Marozzo say something specific to that effect or is it more your overall impression of his method?
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Steven Reich
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Postby Steven Reich » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:31 am

Stacy Clifford wrote:
I. Hartikainen wrote:but the actual way of fighting is very much about feints and being quicker and more clever than your opponent.


Interesting, Di Grassi a few decades after Marozzo comes out very explicitly against feinting in deadly combat (True Play), although he includes a False Play section in the back for school fighting. Does Marozzo say something specific to that effect or is it more your overall impression of his method?

Feints are pretty much everywhere in the Bolognese material: in every weapon and weapon combination, and for both Spada da Gioco and Spada da Filo. This is an interesting split that I've seen among various Italian masters. Some of them use feints quite a lot while others denigrate them. While the former are in the majority, there are a few notable ones who dislike feints, such as Di Grassi, Docciolini, and Capoferro. Of course in the case of Capoferro, he says how feints are useless or bad and then goes on to use them everywhere in his second book (i.e. the actions).

Steve

Note that it was entirely by coincidence that Ilkka and I have managed to select the same Avatar--although we are both studying Bolognese as our primary systems, so it isn't too surprising.

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Postby I. Hartikainen » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:55 pm

Hi Stacy!

Thanks for the good question. To add to what Steve already said (Steve is by far more able to answer in a broad context, I am not much of an expert on di Grassi!), here is a quote from Jherek Swanger's translation of dall'Agocchie (which is the master of whom the exercises in the above videos are from).

32 r:
Lep. I rest with great satisfaction thereof, but certain doubts remain which I’d like you to clarify for me (before we move on), and one of them is this: there are many who say that when acting in earnest one can’t perform so many subtleties as there are in this art.

Gio. What do they mean by “subtleties”?

Lep. They say that one can’t feint, nor disengage, and that there isn’t enough time to perform body evasions and similar things.

Gio. They say such things because one rarely finds men who aren’t moved by wrath or fear or something else when it comes to acting in earnest, which causes their intellect to become clouded and for this reason they can’t employ them. But I say to you that if they don’t allow themselves to be defeated by these circumstances, and they keep their heads, although they may be difficult, they’ll do them safely.

Lep. But what’s the reason for teaching them if they’re so difficult to employ in earnest?

Gio. They’re taught so that courageous men can avail themselves of them in the appropriate occasions. Because one often sees many who were somewhat timid and fearful, yet nonetheless were able to perform them excellently when done in play; but then they were unable to avail themselves of them when the occasion arose in which to do them in earnest.

Marozzo is not my primary source at the moment, I can write more about his take on the subject later on, but staying with the sources I am most familiar with, dall'Agocchie is very clear in that in order to succeed in an attack, you have to initially provoke your opponent to move (to offer a tempo), and feinting is one way of doing this. He even slips one feint in the basic defenses on the above videos (0:17 on the guardia d'Alicorno vid), even though these are supposed to be just demonstration of the most basic principles of defense. Generally, the Bolognese technique base is full of feints, they are really numerous, both for play and fighting with sharps.

On the other hand, it is also made clear, that defending against feints is easy, if you can spot them. Dall'Agocchies usual advice to counter a feint is to not move (I see this as referring to your feet) in order to keep yourself quick to react with a counter either when the opponent is changing the line, or to defend against the next attack in two times. Occassionally there is also double feints (for example: feint a mandritto, feint a riverso but strike with a mandritto).

What is important to remember is that not all the sources from the same time period describe the same theory or the same system, or same preferences. One who is defensive and likes to play very secure may not want to bet everything on a feint, while someone who is of more spirit may very well be willing to risk it. It is also psychology in the end, since in a perfect world (as Capoferro states) the feints should not work - but even that is quite not so simple.

I wonder if anyone has ever experienced that feints did not work in sparring or free play? They do. With sharp weapons, they would work even better, as it _really_ takes skill and a cold head to judge someone's attack as being a feint and not to fall for it. The Bolognese masters were always speaking more of the use of the art than the theory itself. And when they describe the theory (the Anonymous Bolognese has the most of it) they do't speak of the feints (as far as I remember), as their place is not in the theory, but in the use.

I hope this helps, and sorry for not being able to answer, at the moment, more specifically regarding di Grassi.


Yours,
Ilkka

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:30 am

Don't worry about answering more specific to Di Grassi, I'm not expecting that, the quote you provided is an excellent answer to my question. I can't recall offhand, what year was dall'Agocchie published? I don't disagree with the idea that feints can and do work, I like using them myself, but since I'm studying a master who doesn't approve of them at the moment then I'm trying to understand his point of view. I still haven't had a chance to really work through Di Grassi's false play in detail yet, but it will be interesting to come back and compare it to what you're working on here.

Something I see different between the two however is the overall style of play. Di Grassi is very thrust-heavy and works great with long, slender blades which don't turn around so quickly, making cuts and feints slower and riskier. What I see in your videos is a lot of cutting with what looks to be a more agile and broader cutting blade (from a few decades earlier) than Di Grassi is using, so more cuts and feints might make sense in that context. Di Grassi's brusque and aggressive true play makes excellent sense when used in its proper context from what we've seen so far. Of course I also think he's one of those "don't take unnecessary risks" guys, so that plays a part too.

I do think though that one reason Di Grassi distinguishes between real fights and school play is because although feints may work well even in a real fight, we tend to have a problem with the suicidal counterattack. You throw a feint that by all rights should set off the opponent's emergency defense, but instead he reacts by attacking you instead of defending, so you wind up losing or getting a double kill because he didn't react the way you intended. Happens all the time in freeplay, especially with newer people. I like Di Grassi so far because his true play seems to significantly reduce the odds of that happening.
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