What's with the hand behind the back?

[Sal Bertucci]

In messer fighting etc. why do so many drawings show the fighters with one hand behind there back?

Is there some advantage that I'm not seeing here?

[Stacy Clifford]

I've never heard anybody yet cite a reason from the manuals for it, though I've heard this question many times. My guess (and this is only my guess) comes from handling some nice steel messers and falchions. All single hand blades are meant to use wrist cuts if they are designed for cutting, but if you try it with a long cut & thrust, the turns and circles for the cuts are long and slow enough that you can usually dodge your extended hand out of the way in time, and because it's a thrusting weapon you will often leave your point out for that purpose, and the free hand is good for slapping it away where its length makes it difficult to recover quickly. In addition, the narrower blades are relatively weak cutters.

In contrast, when I've handled messers, the wrist cuts are tight, fast and very powerful due to the greater concentration of mass and momentum in a short, broad blade. Wrist cuts from a messer seem more than strong enough to me to sever a hand and quick enough to catch it. Even if you thrust with it, slapping the point away is less effective because the turnaround time is so much faster. Basically I get the feeling that a messer is much more hazardous to your roving free hand than a longer blade, and therefore it makes more sense to keep it out of the way.

[Steven Reich]

I've never heard anybody yet cite a reason from the manuals for it, though I've heard this question many times. My guess (and this is only my guess) comes from handling some nice steel messers and falchions. All single hand blades are meant to use wrist cuts if they are designed for cutting, but if you try it with a long cut & thrust, the turns and circles for the cuts are long and slow enough that you can usually dodge your extended hand out of the way in time, and because it's a thrusting weapon you will often leave your point out for that purpose, and the free hand is good for slapping it away where its length makes it difficult to recover quickly. In addition, the narrower blades are relatively weak cutters.

Note that most of the Bolognese tell you to put your hand behind your back as well (of course, a notable exception to this is Viggiani who has you move your hand and arm based on what you're doing in a way analogous to classical fencing or some rapier texts). However, they never exactly say why. I suspect that it's just to prevent the loss of fingers; you can easily bring your hand forward if you sense you'll need it, but it won't get in the way or be a target otherwise.

Steve

[Gene Tausk]

I've never heard anybody yet cite a reason from the manuals for it, though I've heard this question many times. My guess (and this is only my guess) comes from handling some nice steel messers and falchions. All single hand blades are meant to use wrist cuts if they are designed for cutting, but if you try it with a long cut & thrust, the turns and circles for the cuts are long and slow enough that you can usually dodge your extended hand out of the way in time, and because it's a thrusting weapon you will often leave your point out for that purpose, and the free hand is good for slapping it away where its length makes it difficult to recover quickly. In addition, the narrower blades are relatively weak cutters.

In contrast, when I've handled messers, the wrist cuts are tight, fast and very powerful due to the greater concentration of mass and momentum in a short, broad blade. Wrist cuts from a messer seem more than strong enough to me to sever a hand and quick enough to catch it. Even if you thrust with it, slapping the point away is less effective because the turnaround time is so much faster. Basically I get the feeling that a messer is much more hazardous to your roving free hand than a longer blade, and therefore it makes more sense to keep it out of the way.

Stacy, that is the best explanation I have seen. You have put into words something I have been trying to describe for a while. Looks like you put your scientific background to good use (again)!

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Stacy, I agree with Gene here well done! I used to suspect it may have had something to do with style or tradition with that particular weapon.

As we know however, these things more than not have a practical, actual application and your reasoning here seems pretty sound.- AP

[kunio2012]

I've never heard anybody yet cite a reason from the manuals for it, though I've heard this question many times. My guess (and this is only my guess) comes from handling some nice steel messers and falchions. All single hand blades are meant to use wrist cuts if they are designed for cutting, but if you try it with a long cut & thrust, the turns and circles for the cuts are long and slow enough that you can usually dodge your extended hand out of the way in time, and because it's a thrusting weapon you will often leave your point out for that purpose, and the free hand is good for slapping it away where its length makes it difficult to recover quickly. In addition, the narrower blades are relatively weak cutters.

In contrast, when I've handled messers, the wrist cuts are tight, fast and very powerful due to the greater concentration of mass and momentum in a short, broad blade. Wrist cuts from a messer seem more than strong enough to me to sever a hand and quick enough to catch it. Even if you thrust with it, slapping the point away is less effective because the turnaround time is so much faster. Basically I get the feeling that a messer is much more hazardous to your roving free hand than a longer blade, and therefore it makes more sense to keep it out of the way.

thanks a lot for sharing that Stacy. I always wondered why they would make a stance like that. I thought that they just do it to show off that they're fighting with 1 hand.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Should change that name to your first and last name like the forum rules advocate, kuno2012