Charron test cutting

[Bob Charron]

No one is defensive or upset John.

I am making sure that categorical statements which do not reflect my views are challenged. It's not personal at all.

Saying that I'm taking it in a personal direction is another statement which does not properly reflect my views, hence this post

Let's keep to subject matter, not the study approach. The wide-ranging, cross-referencing, full-speed sparring approach has already been established as one I participate in, as well as the learn-the-language, learn-the-culture, learn-the-learning method, do-only-what-the-master-says approach

[Bob Charron]

Todd wrote:
"As to the "courtesy" of not making comments about other approaches, please, let's not even go there ----unless you're willing to first go address the nonsense from some of your own colleagues on other forums that's long been directed at John personally and at our ARMA Study Approach. They should be so lucky as to have the courtesy we continually show here in all our forums and which you yourself have been enjoying. I see your post as an unnecessary distraction, an accusation of discourtesy that rings hollow when everyone here is having civil conversations."

Todd, this is clearly not applicable to this conversation, as these unnamed individuals who you feel are discourteous are neither involved in the conversation, nor are here to defend themselves, nor have been directly addressed with your grievances. It is irrelavant. I have been quite civil considering the reaction to my documented position with regard to Fiore.

You in effect are insisting I share blame with others for their own actions. This is logically inconsistent.

Please address these individuals with your complaints, and see if you can't work it out with them. All is well with me

[Bob Charron]

Jake wrote:
"5) Lastly, as most of us have little or no access to the Getty version, and that leaves us in the unenviable position of having to get our info on it second hand. This is not a good thing, as we're prevented from making a good deal of important points for discussion with only Bob's word and the cheers of a few others. Until we have it, it will be hard to convince us of something without sources that we have availble, just as we will have a hard time arguing against any points (or for them)."

Actually, I know that someone at ARMA has a copy of the Getty, because illustrations from it have been posted in articles on this site (I do hope the museum was contacted for permission before doing so). But, that aside, any questions anyone has about my interpretation can be supported by direct quotation and translation at any point. So far there has been one point of interpretation covered so far, which has been quite adequately documented in such a fashion.

Your post was quite fair Jake, and minor points are minor points, but you don't have to be in an 'unenviable' position of having to take my word for it. I can provide the original Italian for any citation or interpretation. I can also freely admit when I am taking several suggested elements to make a conclusion, or that I don't know about something. Therefore I don't believe it is difficult to discuss many matters using primary documentation, and not having to rely on opinion.

"So, to actually add to the thread...

What assumptions are we basing our work on? How does Bob's extensive SCA experience play into your interpretation of things--it can't not play into it, just as an Asian stylist can't but help to see things in a certain, well, Asian light. The same is true of languages, philosophy, or any activity. I think that our experiences in sparring and cutting and so forth have colored our opinions very strongly in ways that have been evident throughout this thread."

Hopefully all interpretations will be based on coherant primary documentation. We can't simply look at the pictures or we'll screw it all up (I know, I did that at first .

As to previous experience coloring our interpretations, this is a valid point. It is one we all have to take into account. Whether we were in re-enactment, sport fencing, tae kwon do, boxing, collegiate wrestling, etc. I have taken great care to remove all biases (and, I think, with some fair amount of success). I have tried to reduce all my expression of Fiore to how he instructs me to do the technique and no more. Of course we will all of us fail to some degree, but most of us are working very hard to minimize this. Does my sparring with Fiore look like re-enactment fighting? Only when 20 years of exprience raises its ugly head through reflex, not conscious thought. And those moments are becoming fewer and fewer. I'm sure even John had to avoid his previous SCA experience in Florida coloring his interpretation to some extent.

So your points are fair. I do feel they are being addressed. And remember that a great number of people outside ARMA do regular sparring, cutting, cross referencing, etc. ARMA is not the only group to be involved in this kind of activity.

In the end we all should work together, share information and try to come to the best understanding of the primary sources possible. Please come out to the major events which are happening in San Francisco, Chicago, New York, and Lansing and meet hundreds of researchers and practitioners who share your passion for this endeavor. Learn, teach, share and question. Become connected, and add to your understanding of them and their understanding of you.

[Jake_Norwood]

Thanks, yes, I agree.

So your points are fair. I do feel they are being addressed. And remember that a great number of people outside ARMA do regular sparring, cutting, cross referencing, etc. ARMA is not the only group to be involved in this kind of activity.

Yes, also true. Those are also the things that we most frequently come under fire over, in what appears to be a very one-sided fashion. Have you ever been attacked on SFI over your sparring? No, of course not. There are a lot of sensitive feelings in this community right now, on all sides.

Your post was quite fair Jake, and minor points are minor points, but you don't have to be in an 'unenviable' position of having to take my word for it.

Ah ha! Well, um, send one over to me, if you would, or let me know where I can get it. Some of our study group speaks Italian, so that might actually come in handy. I was under the impression that Only you and Matt Easton had access to it. As for the English, I suppose I'll still have to wait, and waiting for something you want is always unenviable.

And back to the show...

Jake

[Bob Charron]

Jake wrote, in response to my saying that many organizations participate in regular sparring and cutting:

"Yes, also true. Those are also the things that we most frequently come under fire over, in what appears to be a very one-sided fashion. Have you ever been attacked on SFI over your sparring? No, of course not. There are a lot of sensitive feelings in this community right now, on all sides."

This is interesting. I think that there is a basis to feel that ARMA may take heat from time to time about sparring. I also think that ARMA looks to take offense at some things, and being sensitive to the possibility, often lashes out at others. It's usually two-sided in any human interaction. We all should be careful with this. It is not productive for someone to bash ARMA because they use padded sparring swords. Likewise it is not productive to say that other groups lack "intent", "seriousness", "force", "speed" or "martial content" in their work. All the groups I am acquainted with use all of these, and therefore these characteristics cannot be used to separate groups, but rather are things they all have in common. Again, bridge building should be done from both sides of the stream.

Jake writes:
"Ah ha! Well, um, send one over to me, if you would, or let me know where I can get it. Some of our study group speaks Italian, so that might actually come in handy. I was under the impression that Only you and Matt Easton had access to it. As for the English, I suppose I'll still have to wait, and waiting for something you want is always unenviable"

Well, like I said, someone who helps with article publishing and the web site have it, or it wouldn't show up in ARMA articles. But it should not be distributed freely by someone who has a copy. All copies should be obtained through the Getty Museum in Los Angeles. Remember there are major differences between modern and Medieval Italian, not to mention dialect (as I found when I tried to communicate with some visiting Italians who had little or no English this last weekend by trying to use what I had learned from Fiore).

The other thing is that if you worry about someone else's translation of something, then you can teach yourself the language. It took me about three years to get comfortable with it working from dictionaries and cross-references, but if I can do it anyone can.

[John_Clements]

Excellent very good, then. Agreed.

By the way, it's funny you mentioned "liberal arts", because some of my research on 14th and 15th century liberal arts has shown a remarkable and surprising connection between fencing and liberal arts studies during the period –prior to the 16th century. This is an aspect that’s not been previously explored by historians of fencing (or even historians in general). I am presenting this in one of my new books where I show a continuity in ideas on the study of arms directly from classical Greco-Roman to the 15th and then the 16th centuries. It's really fascinating. The connection adds even more depth to the heritage of our craft. One master at arms around the time of Fiore even called martial arts one of the liberal arts.

JC

[Bob Charron]

Stewart,

I can study other masters without practicing them regularly, nor delving into them more deeply. I can keep my Fiore separate because I am committed to doing it. I suppose it is the same with anything

Of course you find valuable cross-references. As long as you make sure you're not grafting and melding. Use it as a reference only, explore any similarities and differences, and then put it in a file separate from Fiore

[Guest]

Fiore, thank God, did not write in ancient Friuli dialect, I do not understand the modern one, let alone the ancient <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> To non Friuli people it would seem like he came from Mars!
He did use what we call "volgare" (peoples language), it is a sort of pre-Italian, because he probably did not know latin, however his language would have been no problem for an Italian of his age. If you want to imagine him, people from Friuli often are big guys, not always, with solid muscles, dark hair and blue eyes are a common combination (expecially in women <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ).
Carlo

[Bob Charron]

Stewart,

Of course looking at other master's work helps, and gives insights into how things may be done. I find the German material differs quite significantly. I have gained the most insight from references in other Italian masters, mostly where another Italian master will use the same phrase that Fiore uses to describe actions or concepts. In this regard Vadi has been of some help, but I have to be careful there. Viggiani has been of the greatest help in confirming the same conceptual approach Fiore outlines for the sword in one hand, while his clear statement through the mouth of Bocadiferro, the scholar in his dialogue, that links classical physics with almost all the concepts in fencing. That has led me to another several months of study directly related to understanding and teaching Fiore.

How do I teach? I try teach as Fiore did. At the beginning of his section on the sword in two hands, he teaches the four steps and the three turns. Then he teaches the poste and what each can do well. Then he teaches the plays from zogho largo, then the plays from zogho stretto. Perfect.

I teach the same way. I teach the basics, the poste and their use, and then the plays, which all teach important, linked concepts. When one has covered these one has all the knowledge they need to begin integrating them into a fighting system.

It is a Medieval way of learning, which is to say it is experiential. This is why many become frustrated with Fiore, because they want him to teach like a modern mathematician. No, he is an educated man of the 14th century and he teaches like one, with all the referential schemes and mnemonic devices that are appropriate to the time. In order to appreciate Fiore, or to even know what he is trying to say to you, you have to do work on the academic system and method of learning in use at that time.

In my opinion you cannot just study fencing. Or rather the study of fencing involves the study of so many other things in order to understand it fully, that it is by it's very nature as wholistic as the educational system of his time.

And I don't necessarily disagree with an eclectic approach. I just find that for myself I do not want to begin an eclectic approach until I am sure what it is that I am comparing and contrasting. I don't want to add Fiore to an eclectic study until we're reasonably sure what Fiore is really up to. To do so prematurely is to make a mixture of unknowns, again in my opinion. And lord knows I'm in the minority

[Matt Easton]

"He did use what we call "volgare" (peoples language)"

Yes Carlo - he wrote his book for Niccolo III d'Este, Marchese of Ferrara, Parma and Regio and later Captain of the Papal Armies, so Friulian dialect wouldn't have been very appreciated <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Niccolo also owned texts by various famous song-witers and humanists in the common tongue.

Matt

[Bob Charron]

Stewart,

The average class begins with warm-ups done on your own (30 pushups, 30 situps, 30 hindu-squats). When these are done you may join the group. We then do basic footwork drills to reinforce the basic movement (four steps, three turns). We then take a basic thematic element and begin with applying it in hand to hand (sometimes with a dagger, sometimes not). That theme is then practiced again with the sword in two hands, through several plays that utilize the concept. Then *very controlled and supervised* bouting is done at the end of class, with the object being to use the conceptual element learned that night. If they slip out of the system or have a control issue, they leave the floor (only one pair at a time). This reinforces proper practice, proper regard for your companion and heads off the development of bad habits. All students are encouraged to comment on the bouts, and they are used as a learning tool by everyone.

Free bouting with wasters is far too dangerous in my opinion. We use fencing masks and padded gloves at all times during bouting, and learning control by starting out with shinai. When control with the shinai is demonstrated, then they may graduate to other weapons (say aluminum swords which encourage control by their design and balance ). At any time bouting privileges may be suspended or revoked. Bouting is a privilege earned by demonstration of control and its credentials must be maintained with daily approval. Anyone who fails to win the trust of their companions will not be allowed to bout. If it appears to be something they're not going to correct quickly, they will be asked to leave the salle altogether. Injuring anyone should be avoided at all costs.

Bouting is done at approximately 90% speed in reality, as control is always being exercised. If the occasion for zogho stretto arises, they establish the entry of the technique and a stop is called. Training in using zogho stretto against a resisting opponent is done on mats and with very strict supervision.

I've tried the padded swords, and don't really like them personally. Yet to each his own in this regard. I like the way the shinai teach flow from contact without bounce, and for any faults they may have, they are extremely safe at speed as long as thrusting is controlled.

Bouting certainly is not slow or soft, as some would say. Yet slow and soft is necessary at some point in the training in order for the technique to be properly learned and understood.

I hope that helps.

[Guest]

There are padded swords and padded swords, some are good for hard contact sparring and sacrifice a bit of handling pleasure to strenght, others keep better hanling but are best for lighter contact sparring. Do not be satisfied after you tried one kind of padded sword, I have gone through several projects and I'm still experimenting, it does not seem to exist an "average padded sword", you can use some many cores and so many shapes...
Padded swords allow greater peace of mind if contact happens (I usually make it happen), John is not a fun of flexible ones, yet they can be made and can meet the needs of others; you can even turn a shinai in a padded sword if you want.
Then if you do not like any kind of them, we do not all like the same things.
Carlo