Parrying attacks to the hips/waistline

[Chris Ouellet]

Interesting discussion.
Do you ever jump? Is there a historical precedent to jumping? Some people use quite low basic fighting stances, if the legs are already in a crouch then jumping may prove natural.
While I have jumped to avoid a low cut when committed to a charge, in general if you can't void counter-cut->bind is the only real option.

As a funny aside hard-block *is* possible, if the ground is soft you can stab the ground and pass to a grapple. Right foot forward, right arm stab parallel to the leg, pass with left leg and control the opponent's primary sword arm with your left. This is not historical and I've only successfully done it a few times in sparing so I don't advocate it as a primary or even secondary defense, it's in those crazy "wtf moments" when you've been caught with bad distance/timing but can sort-of get the sword in the way (i.e. better than dying).
Otherwise it's very difficult to get the leverage necessary to dead stop a strong cut to the legs.

[Chris Ouellet]

About circling in a fight. Personally, I think you should just go up to your opponent and strike at him/her (using good timing, distance, range, etc.). If you are not ready to make that strike, stay well back out of distance. When you are ready to strike, then enter into proper range and cut! If as you come into range and are about to make a cut your opponent cuts at you, countercut! Any questions?

I don't disagree with anything of what you said greg, except for the wording of a small but important chunk of this passage. "Staying well back out of distance" is a mistake, in practice, so I'm curious if there's a historical source that will tell you to do this.
You want to maintain a close distance to your opponent, ideally hovering at the very edge of the kill-range.
Fighting multiple opponents makes this imperative, especially if they are skilled at fighting together.

[Eric White]

I strongly recommend learning a set of historical guards even if that means that you unlearn the "14 essential longsword guards." You will be much better served in the long run.

[...]

About circling in a fight. Personally, I think you should just go up to your opponent and strike at him/her (using good timing, distance, range, etc.). If you are not ready to make that strike, stay well back out of distance. When you are ready to strike, then enter into proper range and cut! If as you come into range and are about to make a cut your opponent cuts at you, countercut! Any questions?

Ringeck describes only four basic positions: "There are only four basic positions which are useful in combat, this are Ochs, Alber, Pflug, and vom Tag." What does this mean for the other guards John C. describes in his book? They're not to be used? Or do they still have their own inherent value?

Also, I believe where I err is the tenacity with which I've watched ARMA members free-play on the Video section. I believe that this is mostly due to the fact that I don't yet own a fencing mask, and neither does my free-play partner. We use wooden wasters and we're both worried about clobbering the other guy in the face. I have a feeling that our attitude/intent will change once we're not worried that our fledgling ability to control our cuts won't seriously threaten the other's health. The real intent to strike, as I've noticed in the vids, makes a huge difference.

[Jeff Hansen]

[quote="Eric White"]
Ringeck describes only four basic positions: "There are only four basic positions which are useful in combat, this are Ochs, Alber, Pflug, and vom Tag." What does this mean for the other guards John C. describes in his book? They're not to be used? Or do they still have their own inherent value?

quote]



All of the guards fall under the umbrella of the four basic guards. i.e.- iron door, nebenut, and low shranckhut are all variations of alber. einhorn, hengenort, and high shranckhut are variations of ochs. Etc.

[Eric White]

All of the guards fall under the umbrella of the four basic guards. i.e.- iron door, nebenut, and low shranckhut are all variations of alber. einhorn, hengenort, and high shranckhut are variations of ochs. Etc.

Well that makes sense. Thank you for explaining that!

[Jonathan Newhall]

I strongly recommend learning a set of historical guards even if that means that you unlearn the "14 essential longsword guards." You will be much better served in the long run.

[...]

About circling in a fight. Personally, I think you should just go up to your opponent and strike at him/her (using good timing, distance, range, etc.). If you are not ready to make that strike, stay well back out of distance. When you are ready to strike, then enter into proper range and cut! If as you come into range and are about to make a cut your opponent cuts at you, countercut! Any questions?

Ringeck describes only four basic positions: "There are only four basic positions which are useful in combat, this are Ochs, Alber, Pflug, and vom Tag." What does this mean for the other guards John C. describes in his book? They're not to be used? Or do they still have their own inherent value?

Also, I believe where I err is the tenacity with which I've watched ARMA members free-play on the Video section. I believe that this is mostly due to the fact that I don't yet own a fencing mask, and neither does my free-play partner. We use wooden wasters and we're both worried about clobbering the other guy in the face. I have a feeling that our attitude/intent will change once we're not worried that our fledgling ability to control our cuts won't seriously threaten the other's health. The real intent to strike, as I've noticed in the vids, makes a huge difference.

You will definitely need (at least) the fencing mask. I for one still managed to get myself absolutely clobbered in the noggin (my helmet is now somewhat bent - it's not made to take a baseball bat to the side!) and my neck has only recently (after two months or so) recovered and stopped being so stiff. You will make mistakes occasionally when you're first starting so that safety equipment is of paramount importance, gloves and helmet being the most important of all. You will get handshots a LOT, and you will get headshots occasionally, everywhere else can do without super protection except possibly your groin.

[Eric White]

You will definitely need (at least) the fencing mask. I for one still managed to get myself absolutely clobbered in the noggin (my helmet is now somewhat bent - it's not made to take a baseball bat to the side!) and my neck has only recently (after two months or so) recovered and stopped being so stiff. You will make mistakes occasionally when you're first starting so that safety equipment is of paramount importance, gloves and helmet being the most important of all. You will get handshots a LOT, and you will get headshots occasionally, everywhere else can do without super protection except possibly your groin.

I learned about the hand protection pretty quickly. Last Saturday I actually parried a shot to my waist (hey, this is EXACTLY why I started this thread--I somehow feel complete now) by throwing my grip into the path of the cut. What a moronic move that was--saw stars there. I didn't lower the blade low enough in the close guard to block with my strong. Anyways, right after my knuckles swelled I took a thrust to the elbow (I was in side guard [sorry, don't know the German terminology yet]) and that bruised up beautifully. You can see in the video that our entire attitude changed--we became extremely careful, to the point that our martial intent flew out the window. It's laughable really--the video shows us pulling our cuts so that the other CAN parry them.

The safety equipment is a must. Lets hope Santa has some room in his sack for a fencing mask and gloves.

[Greg Coffman]

About circling in a fight. Personally, I think you should just go up to your opponent and strike at him/her (using good timing, distance, range, etc.). If you are not ready to make that strike, stay well back out of distance. When you are ready to strike, then enter into proper range and cut! If as you come into range and are about to make a cut your opponent cuts at you, countercut! Any questions?

I don't disagree with anything of what you said greg, except for the wording of a small but important chunk of this passage. "Staying well back out of distance" is a mistake, in practice, so I'm curious if there's a historical source that will tell you to do this.
You want to maintain a close distance to your opponent, ideally hovering at the very edge of the kill-range.
Fighting multiple opponents makes this imperative, especially if they are skilled at fighting together.

This comes from Liechtenaurs instructions to fight in the vor and get the vorschlag (sp?) when possible. If you are there to fight, then fight. Don't wait around for something to happen.

Equipment: mask, cup, gloves, in that order. Mask so you can include the head as a target. The head is the most important target by virtue of being the most decisive and most common target. Most of us have half a dozen different gloves because we experiment to find the gloves that are right for us in the protection-dexterity spectrum. Once you have learned proper control, you may not even use gloves. A few manuscripts depict fighters practicing in gloves (I.33 for example) but most do not. Having proper intent (one of our basic principles) does indeed make a huge difference and is one of the things that divides those who practice these arts as a Martial Art from those who don't.

Many of the secondary guards are just mutations on the primary four. By the time of, say Joachim Meyer, the four primary guards refer to very specific positions and are distinguished from other positions close by. But in the 14th and much of the 15th century, the four guards were understood more loosely, Alber is Alber whether the sword is held straight out or a bit too the side (which would be iron-door). John C's 14 guards (which I severely doubt he uses or would even recommend anymore) seem to be his own attempt at describing the range of positions in which one can hold the sword. This range is much better depicted in the historical guards, with the four primary guards (from the German tradition) being a broad articulation and the inclusion of the accumulated secondary guards plus the guards of other regions in Europe (such as the Italian guards) composing a detailed and systematic range.

Do you ever jump? Is there a historical precedent to jumping? Some people use quite low basic fighting stances, if the legs are already in a crouch then jumping may prove natural.

We don't jump upwards to void a low cut. We may raise our lead foot up off the ground. We leap forward sometimes, a lunge, with proper footwork.

...in general if you can't void counter-cut->bind is the only real option.

Sometime, many times, counter cutting in order to gain the bind is a much better option and not inferior in any way. Use to in ARMA we voided more than bind. Now it is the opposite based upon a better reading of the sources.

[Greg Coffman]

Last Saturday I actually parried a shot to my waist by throwing my grip into the path of the cut...I didn't lower the blade low enough in the close guard to block with my strong.

Don't do that! Lol. Don't "block" it. Don't try to take it in a guard. Cut against it. Cut a right low cut (underhand cut) to his hand. Or cut a zornhau (diagonal overhand), right or left. Anyways, in this guard (called pflug, "plow") your hands should be low and below your waist and sword held more parallel than at a diagonal. The sword point should point at your opponents face, which means you have to hold the sword lower that it seems. Practice this with a mirror, pointing the point at your own reflection to get a feel for it.

[Eric White]

Don't do that! Lol. Don't "block" it. Don't try to take it in a guard. Cut against it. Cut a right low cut (underhand cut) to his hand. Or cut a zornhau (diagonal overhand), right or left. Anyways, in this guard (called pflug, "plow") your hands should be low and below your waist and sword held more parallel than at a diagonal. The sword point should point at your opponents face, which means you have to hold the sword lower that it seems. Practice this with a mirror, pointing the point at your own reflection to get a feel for it.

It seems with all of this countercutting, you would never want to attack first. If you were to cut first, wouldn't you then expect your opponent to countercut? It seems it would pay to be very defensive then, and I'm sure that that's not correct at all.

Regarding your descriptions of the countercuts, I think I really need to see it done. Your descriptions seem very clear, but I don't have much of a basis to go on. That's why I have my fingers crossed that my application to ARMA gets accepted--I'm chomping at the bit to get my hands on those members-only training vids. I'm counting on the videos to give me at least a general idea; then, I should be able to understand the source texts more clearly.

For example, Ringeck describes close combat very particularly: "In close-combat you should do the following: if you strike him with the strike of Wrath and he displaces it, lift up your arms and, at the sword, wind the point to the upper opening. When he displaces (Versetzen) the thrust, stay in the winding and thrust to the lower opening. If he follows your sword in the displacement (Versatzung), lead your point through under his sword (disengage under – "durchführen") and thrust to the other opening on his right side. This is how you can defeat him in close-combat."

My problem is that I don't truly understand the "strike of Wrath" and what it means to "displace" such a strike. This means I have no basic understanding, which I must obtain if I'm to understand what Ringeck is saying. Essentially, I need to truly understand the jargon of this art. I'm hoping that the vids in the member section go through some of this.

[Chris Ouellet]

It seems with all of this countercutting, you would never want to attack first. If you were to cut first, wouldn't you then expect your opponent to countercut? It seems it would pay to be very defensive then, and I'm sure that that's not correct at all.

Any sort of defensive technique means you have read the opponent's attack correctly. You will NOT read a good opponent correctly all of the time. So the question you've asked is "if I see it coming then what do I do" and the answer is "counter-cut". Don't wait to be attacked.

[Sal Bertucci]

I learned about the hand protection pretty quickly. Last Saturday I actually parried a shot to my waist (hey, this is EXACTLY why I started this thread--I somehow feel complete now) by throwing my grip into the path of the cut. What a moronic move that was--saw stars there. I didn't lower the blade low enough in the close guard to block with my strong.

In my experience fingers get hit like this b/c the point of your sword is high. If you follow Greg's advise and lower the point of your sword so that it is always threatening the opponent then that mechanical movement angles the crossguard so that it is in a position protect your hands. Try and keep that in mind.

[Greg Coffman]

It seems with all of this countercutting, you would never want to attack first. If you were to cut first, wouldn't you then expect your opponent to countercut? It seems it would pay to be very defensive then, and I'm sure that that's not correct at all.

The best defense is a good offense, right? Countercutting is using offence, a threatening cut, to defend yourself. But if you make the cut first, you are already on the offense. You want to be on the offense, threatening your opponent, either way regardless of who cuts first. That is how you maintain the initiative.

For example, Ringeck describes close combat very particularly: "In close-combat you should do the following: if you strike him with the strike of Wrath and he displaces it, lift up your arms and, at the sword, wind the point to the upper opening. When he displaces (Versetzen) the thrust, stay in the winding and thrust to the lower opening. If he follows your sword in the displacement (Versatzung), lead your point through under his sword (disengage under – "durchführen") and thrust to the other opening on his right side. This is how you can defeat him in close-combat."

The strike of wrath, "zornhau" (zorn=wrath, hau=strike), is a diagonal overhand cut. When spoken of it usually refers to a right-to-left cut, but everything can be done on the opposite side. When "he displaces it," that can be understood as a counter cut. He displaces the zornhau by cutting against it. Then Ringeck describes possible techniques you could do from there. These technique are called "windings." You are both winding/counterwinding at the sword, both looking for the advantage.

There is no substitute for in-person instruction. Much of the online material assumes the basics that you still need to learn. Where are you located? Perhaps there is an ARMA group near you that you could meet with onece or twice.

[Stacy Clifford]

John C's 14 guards (which I severely doubt he uses or would even recommend anymore) seem to be his own attempt at describing the range of positions in which one can hold the sword.

Greg,

Yes, the guards are still important. John has told me as much that the new curriculum doesn't really change any of the basic elements we've been practicing for years, it changes the context of them and how we use them. All the old guards, steps, cuts, etc. are still there.

Eric,

If you haven't already seen this article, it'll help you catch up on stances and terminology a bit.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/StancesIntro.htm

[Greg Coffman]

John C's 14 guards (which I severely doubt he uses or would even recommend anymore) seem to be his own attempt at describing the range of positions in which one can hold the sword.

Greg,

Yes, the guards are still important. John has told me as much that the new curriculum doesn't really change any of the basic elements we've been practicing for years, it changes the context of them and how we use them. All the old guards, steps, cuts, etc. are still there.

Stacy,
The 14 guards presented in Medieval Swordsmanship are not the same as the historical guards that we practice. I never said that guards are not important. I said that the historical guards are the ones we should practice and not the watered down versions in Medieval Swordsmanship.