New Jogo do Pau Study groups

[Frederico Martins]

Well, i haven't read it, but by your description, i guess I'm Liking that Meyer guy, and to be completely off topic, he has the same first name as my father.

At my group we don't believe you should release the staff at one hand, unless in very specific situations, to not lose control, but there are jdp groups that use allot of single hand attacks. nevertheless the strikes are done as if the front hand isn't there and most of the strength is in the back/pivot hand, that should be your dominant hand. the front hand slides along the staff naturally. I'm curious to know if that is what Meyer advices too.

Cheers!

[Stacy Clifford]

Well you can review the plates here (and read it in Medieval German if you can) starting on page 392:

http://www.umass.edu/renaissance/lord/p ... r_1600.pdf

An excellent English translation is available for sale here:

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Combat-German ... 791&sr=1-1

I don't think it's exactly the same as JdP, but I think you'd find some intriguingly strong similarities.

[Kevin Hemmingsen]

What is the average size of a Jogo do Pau Staff (width / height)? Also what is the typical wood that they were constructed from?

Sorry for the questions I could not find a specific answer online.

[RayMcCullough]

So the 1800's is as far back as the unbroken lineage goes? No one actually said how far back the known master that taught the next master all the way up to present day one is.

Thanks

P.S. -Cool stuff by the way!

[Frederico Martins]

thanks Stacy, I'm sure gonna have have a look at it if I have the opportunity.

Kevin, no problem feel free to ask. Traditionally, the staff is about the size of a man, or by the chin. We use standard 1.45m staffs nowadays, ive weighted some of mine and they range from about 650 to 800 grams, but ive used lighter ones on demonstrations and seen heavier ones. The weapon is heavier in one of the extremities, that we use pointing forward for more power generation and blocking mass.

The woods we use are quince and lotus, they are the most flexible and durable we have locally, but due to the low quality of the staffs we have received recently, we are now using some synthetic material.
The black staff on the right in the first clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSDSsereOdg
The height distribution is uniform in these, but since it is a bit heavier than wood, we use the same mechanics nicely. With use, they tend to become too much flexible, but even so last much more than wood. The diameter is around 2.5m.

Ray, there are mentions of masters names from recent times, but this is poor people, not nobleman and didn't have much distinguishable place in society, the lineage I mention as I said is never of noble blood, but the fact that until the XX century there were actual people practicing, using it in duels(for diverse popular conflicts between individuals and/or villages, love cases etc.), for self defense, it reported cases of regular troubles in trade fairs due to staff fighters.. stuff like that. and of groups of people getting together to practice it together and get better... developing the art in a practical way.

[Stacy Clifford]

I just watched some of the JdP videos again and realized something important - I don't see very much thrusting in any of them, almost none at all. Thrusting is very important in all the Renaissance manuals I've looked at, especially the English ones. While I think the staffs in the JdP videos are capable of thrusting, they are clearly not as stiff as a good spear shaft and I don't think they would deliver quite the same impact, or deflect the same way when parried. A thrust from a 3 cm-thick hardwood staff can be devastating, especially a longer one with more mass behind it, and is certainly a worthy attack to include in your arsenal. Is there more thrusting in JdP that we just don't see in the videos, or is that an accurate depiction of the range of techniques? If thrusting is uncommon, is there a reason why?

[Frederico Martins]

that is a good question Stacy, thank you.

thrusting is a very important part in jogo do pau too.
let me elaborate.
It is always present even if not done. It is one of the things that keeps distance correct. In the videos it is not shown much because it isn't much impressive and mostly ends a fight in a ugly way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHBX7sZOY7o
see this video, people are just having fun there, and some dont have very good technique, but from time to time you see a thrust that keeps awareness of distance up. at 0.33 or at 0.44
this is not just to measure distance, there are thrusts born from blocks that even if the opponent doesn't moves too much forward he gets easily hit.

A good thruster can end a fight in the first attack, even a good thrust to the hands can stop an attack in the middle of the movement, that must be very precise, and you are done if you miss it, but it is possible by experienced people.

Also a good thrust comes from the entire body weight, moving the entire body forward with the staff, and not just raising the arms, that is devastatingly powerfully, and the staffs we use are actually very solid and don't break or bend even if you do that against a cement wall, but you probably will so don't try it;)

hope it makes sense! Cheers!

[RayMcCullough]

Not thrusting if not wearing a mask makes good sense. The Meyer manual mentions not thrusting if fighting native Germans and then goes on to have quite a bit of thrusting. It might be the same reason. Thrust if your life is on the, but in practice with fellows, try and keep it to a minimum for safety sake.

[Frederico Martins]

that is a very nice logic Ray
I would add, use it as a learning tool, masters usually simulate thrusts that don't end hitting me, but it is like a wake up call for wrong distance when you see a pointing staff in front of your eyes, don't need to say more... it is good to use it that way, it will not only warn you that you age doing wrong distance but is also good to warn when you are moving your body in front of the weapon and exposing yourself before landing the strike. I learn allot when my practicing fellas do that to me, and sparing at medium speed no one needs to get hurt...

actually i did that once to a friend of mine that was less experienced and was just starting sparing. he got so surprised with the move that he actually hurt himself with his own staff, hitting himself in the head with the staff area between the hands when raising the arms(didnt get much hurt luckly), this is to say how clear this is(he immediatelly noticed and jumped back, got time for that because of course i didnt ful commit the thrust) and a good practical learning tool if used properly.

[Stacy Clifford]

I think we're on the same page about thrusting then, what you say pretty much agrees with my experience with the staff manuals. We don't thrust in free-play without a mask either, but we will thrust to the chest in drills without masks, usually stopping just short or touching lightly.

Some differences I'm seeing may simply be in the drilling method. The JdP videos are showing continuous back-and-forth striking and parrying, only occasionally landing a hit. The manuals tend to describe very short sequences of no more than two or three moves that end in a successful strike, no nonsense just end the fight fast. I can see that JdP has the moves to accomplish the same thing, it has a lot in common with longsword as well, but that's not how the drills look on video, they are much more rhythmic and look a bit choreographed almost. The one a few posts back with a strike to the head was nice though, sweet move that one.

[Frederico Martins]

Hi again Stacy,
Let me say that i totally agree that a real fight only lasts a few strikes like you described, if not ended in the first one actually.

with that in mind let me try to explain what is going on in the videos.
That is a practicing exercise (we call "playing") in which the goal is to apply all the techniques, at will and randomly, at the fastest speed that both fighters can do without getting hurt.

this means that at faster speeds, the strikes, that should be directed to the body, stop being possible to control, and that your blocking ability must be really good to maintain that for some time, being that a strike can be from any place and you must read that and block.

the block and counter situation happens often because when you finish an attach your arms are extended, and the blocker has his arms bend, so he just needs to extend them to land a strike and you have to bend and extend, but that is not a rule, you should do double strikes if you can, repeated, thrusts.. and apply all techniques and try to surprise the opponent.

this is a great technical exercise(it is not as full sparing as with padded weapons) for your senses, reaction, perfecting the strikes and blocks, etc.. but it has some dangers, if you practice just for the "flow" you loose combat application, you can start doing it at larger distance were the strikes stop actually being a threat and you can speed up to incredibly, but that looses all combat aplication and starts being more of a ludic game, so our masters are always warning us for that dangers, to strike to the body etc..

we also do what you describe, sequences of 2/3 strikes and defenses in all situations as exercises, and that is the largest part of our class, in the end, and not every time, we do this kind of "playing" that develops awareness in action in ways that those limited exercises can't.

Also, to corroborate what you say, when we practice with padded weapons, and are fully engaged, rarely happens more than 2 or 3 strikes until a hit happens.

but this paying method is the more traditional and old way to practice. and is a great tool too. people from different part of the country with slightly different techniques can play that together if they are good enough. and sometimes can happen that out of that, for rivalities and stuff, one of the fighters starts getting harder, the other gets offended, and from a startingly peacefull play, someone can get hit in the end.

Also duels were resolved around this "game" where one would start at medium/fast speed and it could last some time, the fighters would mesure each other, and raising speed until one beats the other.

But, if 2 even if very experienced players start fighting with killing intentions from the first strike, a fight doesn't last more than a few strikes, as you said.

hope you now understand what that videos show, thank you for the questions, it also gives me a notion of the image they give to some one that doesn't know the art. Please feel free to ask more stuff, I think this has been useful, and would also like to know what you and other people think.

Cheers!

[Stacy Clifford]

Good explanation, I'm enjoying this discussion. I can see the benefit from the drilling style you describe, but when you look at the video representation of JdP on the web it starts to look like that's all there is to it, probably because the drill admittedly makes entertaining film. I think you would get a better response from serious combat martial artists like us by putting up more videos showing drills and sparring that result in actual hits and one technique defeating another, otherwise it starts to look too much like a game or a dance and you get skepticism. It sounds like you do have a combat art with a sound philosophy, but you need more videos that reflect that side of your training.

[steve hick]

So the 1800's is as far back as the unbroken lineage goes? No one actually said how far back the known master that taught the next master all the way up to present day one is.

Thanks

P.S. -Cool stuff by the way!

Actually, I understand there is a dissertation of Rui Simoes that has the early references, I have not been able to obtain this, but it, apparently goes back to the 18th c, and we have montante from the 17th.

Also, the reason to go to half sword is a phase change, the two handed sword is now used as if it were essentially a very short spear, more or less, not something effective in JdP.

Steve

[Frederico Martins]

We sure lack good promotional/marketing material Stacy and have allot to learn in that field. I understand perfectly what you say and I wish we had better stuff to show. Unfortunately all I can show now is very bad quality videos, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmcYaSHdL5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYgkx-VZ6s0

the last one the floor is so slippery that ruined mostly the demonstration...

but This might be the kind of thing you are talking about, they show simple strike block strike to hit sequences in diverse situations, including thrusts that we were talking before, then proceed to a more playing like game you see in other videos, this shows that transition and how technique is applied.

Hope you like it, beside that fact that the videos are so painful to watch, if you take your time to see it carefully I would like to know what you and other people think.

[Frederico Martins]

I would love to have better videos, and I understand how painfull it must be to see the ones I posted, even if I loved to have comments on it from a staff scholar from this community, that is a community that seem to have a martial intent that I find valuable.

Im really excited about this project and master Luis Preto is creating learning material that didn't exist before, and he is probably the best person alive to make this kind of material, even than more experienced masters, because of his academical and practical sport science background.

So, with all this that have been developed and I hope will continue to be, it would be sad that it wasn't put to use now, and only when there are no masters practicing anymore.

That isn't the case because we already have 2 great dedicated groups working with us, the collegium in Armis and the Gothenburg Historical Fencing School that made this project possible. But it would make much more stuff possible and a ritcher experience if we had more groups and people to join.

I'm really hopping that some ARMA groups, even if starting small, would find interest in this and start a study group parallel with your other arts, and see how usefull it would be to your wma studies.

Here is a resume of what we already have avaiable:
(all exercices include text description of what is to do and necessary photos and clips to better understand them)

Stage 1 includes:
Exercices:
Exercise 1: Introduction to striking trajectories
Exercise 2: Introduction to hand movement
Exercise 3: Introduction to rotational strikes
this first exercises introduce you to basic notions of how the staff works

Exercise 4: Oblique descending strike on the dominant side
Exercise 5: Oblique descending strike on the non dominant side and introduction to double strike combinations
Exercise 6: Repeated strikes
this last exercises are all executed with a partner and include correct distance mesure and its applications to different distances.

Descriptive document of the basic rotational strikes.
-Descending strikes
-Ascending strikes
-Horizontal strikes
-A Specific exercise to practicing the strikes according to the target’s position

Stage 1 is already in use by the groups I mentioned, and we are working on the stage 2 that includes:

Stage 2 includes:

PART ONE: INTRODUCTION TO PARRIES
Exercise 1: Introduction to the lateral parry on the dominant side
Exercise 2: Parrying with space management (stepping) and parries for the non dominant side
Exercise 3: Introducing visual skills for strike identification on the non dominant side
Exercise 4: Introducing visual skills for strike identification on the dominant side and backup parry
Exercise 5: Random parries on the dominant side
Exercise 6: Further visual skills of strike identification

PART TWO: INTRODUCTION TO COMBAT IN OUTNUMBERED SCENARIOS

each stage is as I mentioned 10euros and that price is paid one time, and all the group practices under that same material.
You would be able to then teach it for newcomers or even start other groups.

Im sorry if I'm being to talkative and imposing this too much, but I believe in the martial and cultural value of what we are doing, and that it isn't very well known. So i am trying to make that known and understood, and I really believe this thread and the questions posted helped the dedicated reader to understand what jogo do pau is and answered to some pertinent questions.
So once again, please contact me if you are interested in integrating a jogo do pau study group in your current classes or just want to ask something else. at the email: lusitanfencing@gmail.com