An introduction and a question

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

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James Wallhausen
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Postby James Wallhausen » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:31 pm

Tim Ingersoll wrote:It makes me glad to see that there is evolution in the Art taking place after all the is a name for things which do not evolve.......extinct.

I look forward to eventually seeing this for my self.


I can't get over the paradox you've introduced here Tim - the evolution of something that IS extinct...?

I'm very keen to find out what the "new" approach is, but from my research (and discussions on other forums) it seems the "new-ness" and "revolution" is only relative to the previous ARMA approach and not necessarily a truly universal "paradigm shift".

Tim Ingersoll
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Postby Tim Ingersoll » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:15 pm

As interesting as the Paridox is, we have to face the fact that it is being resurected and practiced and thus is once again alive, if only in the infant stages, it still lives. The interesting thought is where will it go from this point. :)
"When at first I took up the sword, I met it's soul. It taught me about myself and I shall never be the same."
Tim Ingersoll, 2009

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:40 pm

James Wallhausen wrote:I'm very keen to find out what the "new" approach is, but from my research (and discussions on other forums) it seems the "new-ness" and "revolution" is only relative to the previous ARMA approach and not necessarily a truly universal "paradigm shift".


Well depending on who you talked to...a lot of information was only released around six months or so ago.

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Stacy Clifford
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:30 pm

It's not that the Art is evolving (it hasn't been fully resurrected yet and has no environment to shape it), but our understanding of the Art is evolving. I'm one of those old timers (10 years now) Sal mentioned and we definitely see and understand things differently now than we did back when I began or even just a few years ago. A lot of this has to do with cumulative experience, and extended exposure to the sources (which continue to increase in number as we plumb the libraries) coupled with years of experimentation and analysis.

What ARMA does differently than most other groups is that we don't just take each manual individually and try to understand it in isolation (though that is a part of what we do). The holistic approach means we cross-compare ALL of the historical sources and look for recurring patterns, ideas, and concepts which tie all the masters together and define the larger concept of "Renaissance Martial Arts" from a theoretical basis. We then take that theoretical core knowledge and reapply it back to individual manuals that maybe we didn't fully understand before and see what questions it answers and what new ones it generates, then reexamine our core concepts and repeat the process. We have done this enough times now to where our core understanding is able to answer most (but not all) of our questions about the manuals, but it took a long time and a lot of exploration of blind alleys and incorrect assumptions to get here, and along the way we've had to learn to break habits we developed in earlier phases of our journey. It's a process we never really expect to end, though it will probably slow down as we get closer to the truth, and even if we do reach a full understanding of the Art, as Swetnam says, a man may "practice all the daies of his life." :)
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Tim Ingersoll
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Postby Tim Ingersoll » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:16 am

Stacy,

"It's not that the Art is evolving (it hasn't been fully resurrected yet and has no environment to shape it), but our understanding of the Art is evolving. I'm one of those old timers (10 years now) Sal mentioned and we definitely see and understand things differently now than we did back when I began or even just a few years ago. A lot of this has to do with cumulative experience, and extended exposure to the sources (which continue to increase in number as we plumb the libraries) coupled with years of experimentation and analysis."

This was what I ment though you explained it in a much better way than I did, thank you :oops:
"When at first I took up the sword, I met it's soul. It taught me about myself and I shall never be the same."

Tim Ingersoll, 2009

James Wallhausen
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:42 am

Postby James Wallhausen » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:21 am

Stacy Clifford wrote:It's not that the Art is evolving (it hasn't been fully resurrected yet and has no environment to shape it), but our understanding of the Art is evolving. I'm one of those old timers (10 years now) Sal mentioned and we definitely see and understand things differently now than we did back when I began or even just a few years ago.


I guess by ARMA standards, I am also an old timer - coming up to 9 years for me too.

Stacy Clifford wrote: What ARMA does differently than most other groups is that we don't just take each manual individually and try to understand it in isolation (though that is a part of what we do). The holistic approach means we cross-compare ALL of the historical sources and look for recurring patterns, ideas, and concepts which tie all the masters together and define the larger concept of "Renaissance Martial Arts" from a theoretical basis. We then take that theoretical core knowledge and reapply it back to individual manuals that maybe we didn't fully understand before and see what questions it answers and what new ones it generates, then reexamine our core concepts and repeat the process. We have done this enough times now to where our core understanding is able to answer most (but not all) of our questions about the manuals, but it took a long time and a lot of exploration of blind alleys and incorrect assumptions to get here, and along the way we've had to learn to break habits we developed in earlier phases of our journey. It's a process we never really expect to end, though it will probably slow down as we get closer to the truth, and even if we do reach a full understanding of the Art, as Swetnam says, a man may "practice all the daies of his life." :)


This certainly sounds similar to my own approach, but have used a somewhat different method to reach the conclusion. Back in 2005 I developed my own Method for approaching the sources which was designed specifically to avoid any blind alleys and incorrect assumptions. I believe that if the method is correct then the delivery of knowledge using such a method will be better.


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