Ton of questions re: arms, armor, combat

[Benjamin Parker]

I personally am inclined to think that armour couldn't be pierced by a warhammer La Noue mentions even a couched lance couldn't get through.

And I said that sometimes knights dismounted, only sometimes usually they fought on horseback.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Well, I've seen a video of an ARMAteer puncturing a 16 gauge steel helmet with one once (historical literature often mentions helmets being "cloven through" or some such, so it doesn't seem so far-fetched), though whether it could penetrate a breastplate is up for debate.

[Stacy Clifford]

I personally am inclined to think that armour couldn't be pierced by a warhammer La Noue mentions even a couched lance couldn't get through.

Take a good look at what we did to a steel helmet with a warhammer on this page:

http://www.thearma.org/photos/Gathering ... utting.htm

Having been there to see it in person, I can assure you even a poorly tempered modern replica of a warhammer can do cringe-worthy damage to steel plate if it hits right. One of the chief advantages of plate was that it created angles of deflection to make direct 90 degree hits like these more difficult. Too far off of 90 degrees and the blow will just skate off (works better against sharp objects than blunt ones though). As you can see in the pictures though, even a sword blow can put a crease in plate that could give you a sizable headache, break a bone or limit your mobility if it hits square enough and hard enough. A deep dent near a joint or a bone, or one that pinches the flesh, could make it difficult or painful to move even if the blow itself only caused a bruise.

[Benjamin Parker]

I would like to see how authentic and accurately made that helm was first and I think that helms being clove through is poetic liscense.

[Sal Bertucci]

That's right, centuries worth of poetic license. There are tons of pictorial evidence as well as accounts of armor being pierced just by spears etc.

[Benjamin Parker]

That's right, centuries worth of poetic license. There are tons of pictorial evidence as well as accounts of armor being pierced just by spears etc.

Exactly, that's the medieval version of hollywood and as such those pictures and tapestries shouldn't be taken seriously.


BTW Just for my own curiosity could like to see your sources for armour being pierced by spears?

[Stacy Clifford]

Even if that helm wasn't made with perfect accuracy, the steel thickness is still pretty close to what it would have been originally, and modern steels are more consistently of a higher quality than anything in the pre-mechanized era, so it probably has a 50/50 shot of being better steel. That spike penetrated deep and left big holes you could stick fingers through. I think you would have to thicken the steel too much to completely eliminate penetration; even a shallower hole would still punch through your skull or crack it under heavy padding. Better to have the fighting skills to avoid or deflect a direct hit than to wear an unwieldy helm that throws you off balance.

As for cleaving helms, besides the issue of lower quality or defective steel, you've still got the possibility that a helm has already taken damage to weaken it earlier in the battle, and if adrenaline can give you the strength to lift a car, why not cleave a helm? A warrior might only do it once in his lifetime, but anyone who saw it would certainly remember it. I don't think it's necessarily as common a feat as it might be depicted in art and fable, but it's certainly not out of the realm of human capability. Out of centuries of warfare and many millions of individual attempts to cleave heads and skewer people on spears, I don't see how anyone can say these things NEVER happened.

[Gene Tausk]

I personally am inclined to think that armour couldn't be pierced by a warhammer La Noue mentions even a couched lance couldn't get through.

And I said that sometimes knights dismounted, only sometimes usually they fought on horseback.

Yeah, there is no way that a warhammer can penetrate a helm. Yipper, no way. I saw the same demonstration that Stacy say, and can also testify as to the effectiveness.

War hammers were designed, in part, to penetrate plate armor in the never ending battle between offensive weapons and defensive armor. The fight books were not written as comic books - they are technical manuals. I am more willing to believe a description of a technique accompanied by an illustration from a person who actually lived and died with these weapons.

[Benjamin Parker]

Even if that helm wasn't made with perfect accuracy, the steel thickness is still pretty close to what it would have been originally, and modern steels are more consistently of a higher quality than anything in the pre-mechanized era, so it probably has a 50/50 shot of being better steel. SNIP SNIP

Your pardon for snipping your long and well thought out post I mean't no offense.

I think that can depend on the type of steel (modern or no) and whether or not it was mild, the guage, the make of the hammer, etc.

And those type of helms were worn on top of their maximilian type gorgets which made the whole like a suspension (according to the boss admin on RAT) and as you said it took an ideal angle, which if it was on a gorget the chances of that are low, and since the human neck is built so that the human head never really stops moving.

And while I do agree that there it's a unlikely that never happened I also agree those were hardly common.

Of course if you get through something (the helm) go around it (stick something long and sharp through the eyeslit) of course those helms must have worked other wise no one would be using it. . . Or not (They're very comfortable I except everyone will be wearing them in the feature )

[Benjamin Parker]

I personally am inclined to think that armour couldn't be pierced by a warhammer La Noue mentions even a couched lance couldn't get through.

And I said that sometimes knights dismounted, only sometimes usually they fought on horseback.

Yeah, there is no way that a warhammer can penetrate a helm. Yipper, no way. I saw the same demonstration that Stacy say, and can also testify as to the effectiveness.

War hammers were designed, in part, to penetrate plate armor in the never ending battle between offensive weapons and defensive armor. The fight books were written as comic books - they are technical manuals. I am more willing to believe a description of a technique accompanied by an illustration from a person who actually lived and died with these weapons.

Sir, I did nothing to elict your sarcasm. I have also posted my thoughts on the whole warhammer thing.

Just for my own curiosity could I see the aforementioned illustrations please?

[Sal Bertucci]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124683&page=20

Well here's Talhoffer, but why should we believe him.

Wait, then there's another on page 281 of "Fight Earnestly", which is available for free on the ARMA website by the way. Cool manual overall.

Page 286 is that first pic again.

So there's two pics of three people being killed by a thrust from the top spike of a poleaxe. (Not a spear I know, but spearlike enough)

[Stacy Clifford]

Benjamin,

Nothing wrong with quoting just the part you're responding too, that's just efficient as far as I'm concerned. I just used that helmet as an example, but our discussion covers the entire range of helmets worn throughout Europe over all the centuries we study, so there will be great variation in the quality, design and craftsmanship among the equipment of all those men at arms. Just the same, if helmets didn't work MOST of the time then of course nobody would bother with the things, and I agreed that it probably wasn't a common occurrence. However, read any first hand accounts of battle in any era and you'll find accounts of things that shouldn't have happened, but somehow did anyway. Battle is ugly, capricious and random, and it only takes one weapon out of a hundred thousand with the perfect speed and trajectory to render all the "probablys" moot.

And since you've asked others for sources a couple of times but offered none for your own assertions yet, I would say yes, you have elicited Gene's sarcasm (not that that's difficult). We appreciate your enthusiasm for the discussions on our forum, but if someone is arguing your point or facts then you have to give what you expect to receive. If you have the direct quote from La Noue about the lance and armor, please produce it and establish its cotext if you want to reinforce your point (so to speak).

[Jonathan Hill]

The question of will it always go through seems to be as bad a question as can an arrow go through armor. The answer will always be ‘it depends.’ Anyone who states an absolute in this regard is the fool, failures happen and good strikes also happen, a sport epee has gone through a fencing helm and killed the fencer. Should that happen no, did it happen, yes.

This debate reminds me of an episode of ‘deadliest Warrior, Samurai vs. Viking’ where they have the Japanese helm take an axe blow. The axe didn’t go through the helm, so they all start celebrating the ‘victory’ of the helm holding up. The blow essentially broke the neck of the wearer, so who cares if it held…

Here’s one source, but I’ll give you it is not the period you seek, it is a brass helm and a sabre. While this is not steel helm and hammer, the brass helm is supposed to be sufficient against cuts.

“Pte. George Farmer 11th Light Dragoons, involved in a skirmish on the Guadiana River 1811:

Just then a French officer stooping over the body of one of his countrymen, who dropped the instant on his horse's neck, delivered a thrust at poor Harry Wilson's body; and delivered it effectually. I firmly believe that Wilson died on the instant yet, though he felt the sword in its progress, he, with characteristic self-command, kept his eye on the enemy in his front; and, raising himself in his stirrups, let fall upon the Frenchman's head such a blow, that brass and skull parted before it, and the man's head was cloven asunder to the chin. It was the most tremendous blow I ever beheld struck; and both he who gave, and his opponent who received it, dropped dead together. The brass helmet was afterwards examined by order of a French officer, who, as well as myself, was astonished at the exploit; and the cut was found to be as clean as if the sword had gone through a turnip, not so much as a dint being left on either side of it. “

[Gene Tausk]

I personally am inclined to think that armour couldn't be pierced by a warhammer La Noue mentions even a couched lance couldn't get through.

And I said that sometimes knights dismounted, only sometimes usually they fought on horseback.

Yeah, there is no way that a warhammer can penetrate a helm. Yipper, no way. I saw the same demonstration that Stacy say, and can also testify as to the effectiveness.

War hammers were designed, in part, to penetrate plate armor in the never ending battle between offensive weapons and defensive armor. The fight books were written as comic books - they are technical manuals. I am more willing to believe a description of a technique accompanied by an illustration from a person who actually lived and died with these weapons.

Sir, I did nothing to elict your sarcasm. I have also posted my thoughts on the whole warhammer thing.

Just for my own curiosity could I see the aforementioned illustrations please?

Well, my homey Sal has my back, so feel free to inspect his links.

Here are some more for you:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html

As for your cries of "sarcasm," spare me. You already have somewhat of a reputation for posting nonsense (remember your thought out post about swimming in full armor with no evidence to back it up), and this appears to me to be more of the same.

Also, think about it. A solid weapon with a strong point used with two hands. What do you think would happen if it were used against plate? Will it *always* penetrate plate armor, or any armor for that matter? Of course not, for reasons already stated by Stacy. But to discount the entire writings of people who lived and died by these weapons is absurd at best.

Give me a break and back up what you say.

[Benjamin Parker]

I personally am inclined to think that armour couldn't be pierced by a warhammer La Noue mentions even a couched lance couldn't get through.

And I said that sometimes knights dismounted, only sometimes usually they fought on horseback.

Yeah, there is no way that a warhammer can penetrate a helm. Yipper, no way. I saw the same demonstration that Stacy say, and can also testify as to the effectiveness.

War hammers were designed, in part, to penetrate plate armor in the never ending battle between offensive weapons and defensive armor. The fight books were written as comic books - they are technical manuals. I am more willing to believe a description of a technique accompanied by an illustration from a person who actually lived and died with these weapons.

Sir, I did nothing to elict your sarcasm. I have also posted my thoughts on the whole warhammer thing.

Just for my own curiosity could I see the aforementioned illustrations please?

Well, my homey Sal has my back, so feel free to inspect his links.

Here are some more for you:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html

As for your cries of "sarcasm," spare me. You already have somewhat of a reputation for posting nonsense (remember your thought out post about swimming in full armor with no evidence to back it up), and this appears to me to be more of the same.

Also, think about it. A solid weapon with a strong point used with two hands. What do you think would happen if it were used against plate? Will it *always* penetrate plate armor, or any armor for that matter? Of course not, for reasons already stated by Stacy. But to discount the entire writings of people who lived and died by these weapons is absurd at best.

Give me a break and back up what you say.

Here you are:

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19416 this discusses the whole test warhammer test thing.

However I will not be back for a variety of reasons (the computer monitor hurting my eyes figures prominently)