George Silver on Spanish swordfighting

[C.Scott Relleve]

I've come across something about George Silver and him not having any complaints against Spanish swordfighting (he does not look upon Italian rapier fencing highly, in contrast), if I recall correctlywhile reading "Master of Defence - The Works of George Silver" by Paul Wagner. This is of interest to me as not only am I a Filipino of primarily Spanish descent, but also the Filipino martial arts of "Arnis/Kali" is heavily influenced not only from local tribal/village/clan warfare, but also from Spanish swordfighting, as the Philippines had been occupied by the Spanish until the late 19th century. That's why there are Spanish terms in some of the techniques in Filipino martial arts ("doce pares" - twelve pairs... or twelve peers in other interpretations, "escrima" - skirmish, "mano y mano" - one on one, etc.).

Given that, what are the differences in Spanish swordfighting as compared itItalian during Silver's time? To those who had a hand in practicing both Spanish style of swordfighting and Arnis/Kali, what are the similarities you can tell in techniques?

[Stacy Clifford]

I think Silver had more to say about the Italians than the Spanish because there were more Italians showing up in England peddling their arts at the time, so it was to some extent a matter of what Silver was exposed to. You have to remember that Silver was published around 1599, only 11 years after the English defeated the Spanish Armada, so Spain and England were not at all friendly at the time, especially while a Protestant queen was on England's throne. I can't imagine Spanish fencing masters would have received a very warm welcome in England in those days. The Italians were a bit less picky about the religion of people willing to give them money and seem to have gotten around the continent more (in a non-conquering way) as a result.

I'm not especially familiar with the Spanish school, but at some point around that time period Spanish rapier became pathologically obsessed with geometry to the point of being just plain odd. Italian swordplay at the time definitely utilizes geometry to legitimize it as a "science," but doesn't go overboard and still leaves room for art (mileage may vary depending on which master you're looking at). Silver focused a lot on military utility in his teachings though, while the Italians were promoting the exclusively civilian rapier outside their own shores, and that had a lot to do with Silver's criticism.

[C.Scott Relleve]

Hmmm come to think of it, it is certainly around that time. Thank you for the clarification. I feel that Silver would still respect an enemy state's fighting arts (and probably pick up a few things) so long as they are applicable in battle, although indeed, there's probably less exposure of Spanish arts in English soil as compared to Italian, just as you mentioned.

[steve hick]

Hmmm come to think of it, it is certainly around that time. Thank you for the clarification. I feel that Silver would still respect an enemy state's fighting arts (and probably pick up a few things) so long as they are applicable in battle, although indeed, there's probably less exposure of Spanish arts in English soil as compared to Italian, just as you mentioned.

Silver is onthis site
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/GSilver.htm

In Paradoxes of Defense Of Spanish fight with the Rapier, chapter 9

He is not entirely for it, it is perfect -until.

However, the Spanish play that Silver is addressing is not likely what has been assimilated into Escrima -- that is more likely Spanish military swordplay, of which we know little. And I suspect it is later, 19th century. Some - angles and distances of engagement, might be from the Spanish system addressed by Silver, other stuff, angles of attack, seem more like unto the segno we see in Fiore, or other Italian or Italian derived systems (see Meyer's rapier section).

Steve

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

There are different emphasis in Italian and Spanish rapier fencing, that might be another part of the explanation of why Silver likes the Spanish fight more than the Italian one.

Spaniards build everything upon a very defensive posture, which as Silver describes uses the hilt to cover much of the body with as little motion as possible, keeps the point in line to threaten the opponent and occupy the space, and allows natural stepping in all directions in order to void attacks. Narvaez, one of the leading masters of Spanish Verdadera Destreza, states: "Maintain the defense, that in it you will find the offense". I think this focus on self-protection is well in line with Silver's views.

Spanish fighters strive to never go directly straight towards the adversary along what they called the diameter line (the line between both fighters), because of the risks involved. Instead, Italian fencing happens mostly over this diameter line, trying to get advantage by feints, postures or speed. When done wrong, the Italian way can be more dangerous to both fighters, whereas the Spanish way is safer.

Because they often walk at an angle and try to use pressure on the opponent's blade, Spanish fighters are led to use many more cuts than the Italians, using the momentum that the adversary provides when he pushes back and the angle of attack allowed by the offline steps. This use of cuts must have pleased Silver too.

Their favoured blade length is also a bit shorter than the Italian's, which once again is echoed in Silver.

As for the link Eskrima/Destreza, here is something worth reading:
http://fencingclassics.wordpress.com/20 ... ent-of-mu/

Regards,

[C.Scott Relleve]

Thank you for the major clarification, Vincent! That's exactly the answer I'm looking for!

Given that, although I haven't really practiced Arnis, from that explanation on Spanish swordfighting, I do notice some similarities in concepts and footwork between the two arts, if the Spanish naming conventions of many Arnis techniques being a giveaway to the connection, even though I believe it's mostly Filipino Arnis practitioners observing Spanish sword practice rather than the Spanish teaching the Filipinos (IIRC, practicing Kali/Arnis is banned during Spanish occupation in order to deny the natives fighting prowess in case of a rebellion - Kali/Arnis was then practiced in secret or as a native dance).

Indeed in Arnis, they don't use rapiers - they use bolos/machetes, knives and sticks - weapons mostly ideal for cutting motions - and there is emphasis on being able to attack and defend at the same time, having one weapon defending while the other attacking. Given that, my personal opinion is that Arnis/Kali/Escrima may have the edge over other Indo-Malaysian archipelago weapon arts (and probably over many other surviving Asian weapon arts) due to Spanish influences, independent developments via village/clan warfare (and in modern day, sporting competitions and street encounters/duels), and in last couple of centuries, unification of various clans' Arnis styles.

[seneca savoie]

Thank you for the major clarification, Vincent! That's exactly the answer I'm looking for!

Given that, although I haven't really practiced Arnis, from that explanation on Spanish swordfighting, I do notice some similarities in concepts and footwork between the two arts, if the Spanish naming conventions of many Arnis techniques being a giveaway to the connection, even though I believe it's mostly Filipino Arnis practitioners observing Spanish sword practice rather than the Spanish teaching the Filipinos (IIRC, practicing Kali/Arnis is banned during Spanish occupation in order to deny the natives fighting prowess in case of a rebellion - Kali/Arnis was then practiced in secret or as a native dance).

Indeed in Arnis, they don't use rapiers - they use bolos/machetes, knives and sticks - weapons mostly ideal for cutting motions - and there is emphasis on being able to attack and defend at the same time, having one weapon defending while the other attacking. Given that, my personal opinion is that Arnis/Kali/Escrima may have the edge over other Indo-Malaysian archipelago weapon arts (and probably over many other surviving Asian weapon arts) due to Spanish influences, independent developments via village/clan warfare (and in modern day, sporting competitions and street encounters/duels), and in last couple of centuries, unification of various clans' Arnis styles.

This is not quite accurate. Many of the common weapons in the PI have thrusting points, in particular to the south, where the traditional Moro weapons typically have a thrusting application. Indeed, one of the common axioms of philipine blade arts is "for every thrust a slash, and every slash a thrust"

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

This is not quite accurate. Many of the common weapons in the PI have thrusting points, in particular to the south, where the traditional Moro weapons typically have a thrusting application. Indeed, one of the common axioms of philipine blade arts is "for every thrust a slash, and every slash a thrust"

I wouldn't worry much about the possibility of thrusting. The major difference in my opinion is the length of the weapon. As far as I've seen Philippine weapons are quite a bit shorter than a Spanish rapier; this opens new possibilities in close and allows for a more powerful cutting weapon but also forbids some of the moves made at a longer distance. Specifically, if the blade is shorter than the opponent's arm, it becomes difficult to counter to a vital target while maintaining opposition blade on blade.

Regards,

[terry brown]

I've come across something about George Silver and him not having any complaints against Spanish swordfighting (he does not look upon Italian rapier fencing highly, in contrast),?

>
I'm afraid there is something of a misunderstanding here, George Silver did not by any means approve of Spanish rapier fighting. His criticism of the Spanish school is somewhat more succinct than that of the Italian school but he criticised it nonethelss:)
>
Best wishes,
Terry

[steve hick]

I've come across something about George Silver and him not having any complaints against Spanish swordfighting (he does not look upon Italian rapier fencing highly, in contrast),?

>
I'm afraid there is something of a misunderstanding here, George Silver did not by any means approve of Spanish rapier fighting. His criticism of the Spanish school is somewhat more succinct than that of the Italian school but he criticised it nonethelss:)
>
Best wishes,
Terry

And you might interpret Silver as being "less against" Spanish than Italian, but it is likely that this has more to do with Italians teaching Englishmen. It is a disservice, as Englishmen would more likely war with Spaniards at the time. But then, if they knew the true English fight, then, there you have it.....
Steve

[terry brown]

I've come across something about George Silver and him not having any complaints against Spanish swordfighting (he does not look upon Italian rapier fencing highly, in contrast),?

>
I'm afraid there is something of a misunderstanding here, George Silver did not by any means approve of Spanish rapier fighting. His criticism of the Spanish school is somewhat more succinct than that of the Italian school but he criticised it nonethelss:)
>
Best wishes,
Terry

And you might interpret Silver as being "less against" Spanish than Italian, but it is likely that this has more to do with Italians teaching Englishmen. It is a disservice, as Englishmen would more likely war with Spaniards at the time. But then, if they knew the true English fight, then, there you have it.....
Steve

>
Hello Steve,
>
I hope you are well.
>
I wish to make clear that I personally am not making any criticism of Spanish rapier fighting, its effectiveness or the principles it makes use of. I was simply correcting what is, IMO, a misreading of Silver's thoughts on the matter.
>
Silver's comments on Spanish rapier are, IMO, heavily laden with irony/sarcasm hence the story of the sea-sick doctor and the pebble in the mouth
>
I am far too old in the tooth and hopefully a little too experienced to undersestimate an opponent's abilities or overestimate my own
>
Best wishes,
Terry