Clawing attacks in Ringen and in other HEMA ?

[Vagelis Baltatzis]

Hallo

Everyone know that some martial arts/systems (basically ''soft'' arts) make use of the fingers/nails (some styles of Kung fu as exampel/show the ''tiger claw'' ).

Exist also in Ringen (or in other Historical European Martial Arts) similar techniques ? Or was Ringen more based as ''hard martial art''?

ps. with clawing attacks I mean all techniques that can pe executed with finger/nails as eyegouging with the thumbs , clawing/ripping of the groins etc.

Best Regards

[Sal Bertucci]

Yeah those are totally in there. Petter and Pashen com to mind. I could be wrong though.

[Vagelis Baltatzis]

What is with the other manuals ?? Generally I am very interested if Ringen had only ''hard'' techniques or if it is a mix from hard and soft techniques??

Best Regards

[Stacy Clifford]

Yep:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Passchen/Passchen.htm

When Advers. has enclosed you with his arms [a bear hug from the front], push both your thumbs in his mouth between his cheeks and teeth, and tear his mouth, as in N° 34 [the drawing shows this with one hand - try it on yourself to feel if it works].

[Sal Bertucci]

Vagelis, I'm not sure I understand your question. Would you mid repeating it in a different way?

[Vagelis Baltatzis]

Hallo Sal sorry for my bad english

My basic question is if Ringen had also clawing techniques as in many asian arts like kung fu etc.

Best Regards

[Sal Bertucci]

Ahh, OK. Short answer is Yes.

[Joshua Cook]

Vagelis, a few "soft" techniques have been mentioned already. I also know of an eye gouge in the Flos Duellatorum, and there is a groin attack in the Codex Wallerstein, Plate 123. What's interesting about that one is it shows the use of a clawing/squeezing attack to the groin as part of a combination with a headbutt to an opponent who has seized you from behind. Hope this helps!

[Vagelis Baltatzis]

Hallo Joshua Cook can you give me link from this ? Generally is Flos Duellatorium translated like Paschen und Petter ?

[Joshua Cook]

Hallo Joshua Cook can you give me link from this ? Generally is Flos Duellatorium translated like Paschen und Petter ?

I'm not sure on a comparison between the translations of Paschen, Petter, and Fiore dei Liberi, but I've found that this is a decent translation.

http://www.the-exiles.org.uk/fioreproje ... ion%29.pdf

The eye gouge technique is depicted on page 9, and is used as a counter to a palm press on the face. It seems to me that "soft" methods are used when in situations in which a "hard" technique is unavailable.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Why not just punch someone in the eye, or eyes, as hard as you can? And then from there finish him off....

Or how about punching someone in the upper teeth...knocking the teeth off, and then finish him off?

[Joshua Cook]

Why not just punch someone in the eye, or eyes, as hard as you can? And then from there finish him off....

Or how about punching someone in the upper teeth...knocking the teeth off, and then finish him off?

The reason why is simple physics really. At least 75% (if not more) of your punching power comes from momentum and body mechanics. This means you move your whole body into the punch, and in doing so increase its power to its maximum potential.

But, if you cannot move because your opponent is holding you down, your punching power is reduced to about 25% (or less) of it's maximum potential.

I know the effects of this from personal experience. I live in a rough part of town and have been mugged several times. I'm rather proud of the fact that they only got my money one time. That one time was when I tried to punch my assailant into submission from being held down. The next time it happened, the eye gouge was what saved my money from being stolen again.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

It doesn't take much force to punch someone and hurt someone. I punched the wall in my house not even with that much force and cave in the wall.... If you punch someone on the sensitive parts on the face like the bridge of the nose for example, it doesn't take much to break it and causing the opponent to bleed, choking on his own blood, and tear up, which is of course quite disconcerting! Even when you punch him on the upper lip, it still hurt even if you didn't knock any teeth loose because their is a lot of nerve endings there. Even if you didn't knock any teeth loose you still cause him to bleed and thus cause quite a bit pain, which is probably quite disconcerting.

[Sal Bertucci]

Either way. There are times for punching and times for ripping. Saying otherwise is stupid, and a reflection of inexperience.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

IDK... I'm just saying... I'm only 5' 6" and I put quite a deep indentation the wall, and I didn't even punch that hard! Either that, or I'm extremely strong for my size... lol