Question on vom tag

[Alex Bourdas]

I was wondering if any of you could tell me which manuscripts show vom tag performed by holding the sword to the side of the head?
I ask because the manuscripts I work from have either a vom tag resting on the shoulder or higher above the head, and I would appreciate it if someone could point me in the direction of a manuscript including the beside the head variant.

[Stacy Clifford]

Found these two fairly quickly:

Vadi:



Duerer (single hand):

[Cooper Braun]

Stacy, the first two pages you posted are from Vadi. As an Italian master, none of his guards are Vom Tag. The top right picture on the first page is Posta di Falcon (Guard of the Falcon). The top left picture in the second page is Posta di Vera Finestra (Guard of the True Window), which is similar to Fiore's Posta de Donna (Guard of the Woman). Both have similarities with Vom Tag, but neither are actually Vom Tag.

[RayMcCullough]

Where do you find illustrations with vom tag resting on the shoulder? Would your sword ever be at rest in a fight?

[Tony_Indurante]

I'm just curious- but other than having different names, how are posta di falcon and posta di vera finestra mechanically different than vom tag?

[william_cain_iii]

Vera finestra also looks a lot like Zornhut, apart from the angling up of the sword.

[Alex Bourdas]

Where do you find illustrations with vom tag resting on the shoulder? Would your sword ever be at rest in a fight?

The Von Danzig fightbook shows a sword at the shoulder. Perhaps resting is not the best word, but what I mean here is that the Von Danzig fechtbuch has the sword on, or next to the shoulder, as opposed to above the shoulder and next the head.

[CalebChow]

Where do you find illustrations with vom tag resting on the shoulder? Would your sword ever be at rest in a fight?

The Von Danzig fightbook shows a sword at the shoulder. Perhaps resting is not the best word, but what I mean here is that the Von Danzig fechtbuch has the sword on, or next to the shoulder, as opposed to above the shoulder and next the head.

Hi Alex, some good time ago I asked a similar question regarding exactly the same topic. You can read up on the old thread here:

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23818&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=lazy+vom+tag&start=0

After a few years of practice since that discussion I have never once found a vom tag low on the shoulder advantageous. I always get displaced, I have no power, I have no range, and I can't cut diagonal across from it without either going to high vom tag (in which case I might as well start from the high version) or cutting through my own neck.

There's no reason I can think of in which the vom tag right over the head would have an alternate "shoulder" version that operates completely differently.

[Alex Bourdas]

Thanks for the link, that was a very interesting discussion.
I'm not questioning the effectiveness of a vom tag held by the head vs. a vom tag held on the shoulder. I actually use both.
I asked because I was wondering if anyone could point to me a German longsword manuscript which unambiguously shows vom tag being held next to the head. I ask because I would like to be able to source as much as my techniques as I can to an original manuscript.

[Stacy Clifford]

Stacy, the first two pages you posted are from Vadi. As an Italian master, none of his guards are Vom Tag. The top right picture on the first page is Posta di Falcon (Guard of the Falcon). The top left picture in the second page is Posta di Vera Finestra (Guard of the True Window), which is similar to Fiore's Posta de Donna (Guard of the Woman). Both have similarities with Vom Tag, but neither are actually Vom Tag.

My bad regarding Posta di Falcon, but I agree with Anthony that mechanically, the differences between Vadi's Finestra and Vom Tag are minor at best, and my personal experience concurs with Caleb's comments. I don't think any of the guards is completely fixed in an exact position, there's a certain range of float for each, just as a boxer's guard isn't locked in place as he bobs and weaves. Even if you drop your Vom Tag down and forward a bit to threaten or defend a lower opening, I would still never rest it physically touching the shoulder, that just serves no purpose and reduces your mobility.

[RayMcCullough]

I happened to watch the Renaissance web documentry and noticed in the first part at 1:53, They are in vomtag at the shoulder. I'm not sure what manual that is.

Paulus hecter mair has it at the shoulder. the Historical manuals page has the depiction on it. http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm Just scroll dawn to the 1542 PHM.

page 169 of the 1459 Talhoffer http://www.thearma.org/pdf/Fight-Earnestly.pdf

Von Danzig shows a sword at the shoulder and also shows a Pflug with his shoulder dislocated. What does he say a vomtag is?

[Alex Bourdas]

Von Danzig says:
"This guard is called Vom Tag and is performed as follows: stand with your left foot in front and hold the sword either at the right shoulder or with arms stretched high above your head." (26r)
This is my translation into English of Dierk Hagedorn's translation into modern German.
This implies support for the illustration he uses, but the wording is ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted either way.

[RayMcCullough]

Von Danzig says:
"This guard is called Vom Tag and is performed as follows: stand with your left foot in front and hold the sword either at the right shoulder or with arms stretched high above your head." (26r)
This is my translation into English of Dierk Hagedorn's translation into modern German.
This implies support for the illustration he uses, but the wording is ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted either way.

What do you mean by ambiguous? At the right shoulder or high above the head is pretty straight forward. The illustration is at the shoulder. Why do you assume it is on the shoulder? Where else, or anywhere else, are we told by a master to put the sword on the shoulder in vomtag or the similar Itailan posta? I don't understand the confusion or the Martial effectiveness of putting it on the shoulder. It takes a position where you can make all of the cuts possible(AT the shoulder) and limits you to 2 MAYBE 3 cuts from ON the shoulder.

[Jonathan Hill]

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl6.jpg
http://www.thearma.org/pdf/dlr2.jpg

top right on both.

Just out of curiosity why wouldn't you put the blade on the shoulder if the blade is in a similar position? Naturally this is Italian, not strictly vom tag, but what is the disadvantage on resting the blade? The fight is not always with the arms and if someone wants to tire themselves out by always keeping the blade floating, or even better always using an instable guard that tires the arms out that's their business. Resting the blade reduces fatigue.

Edit: Reading Calebs thread I’m understanding your viewpoint but I’ll still maintain if you use a LVT the difference between resting the blade and making it float are minimal at best, and nothing that elongating your time with footwork wouldn’t fix. Studying Italian these are generally resting positions and all the ‘flaws’ that are brought up in regards to them are basically philosophical.

As to the OP’s question reading the thread Caleb referenced should answer your question, and except for the contesting Mairs plate of if the blade is resting or half an inch off the shoulder are bypassed, you have an example.
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 3&seite=53

[william_cain_iii]

Keeping the guard low and resting the blade on the shoulder turns it into a wrist cut if you go for a Zornhau or Oberhau. It drastically reduces your range of strike, your options, and your ability to generate power.

It may reduce fatigue, but it equally reduces your range of options and striking power. If you need to reduce fatigue, use a lower guard like Alber and gain some distance.