John Clements Challenge

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Martin Surdel
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John Clements Challenge

Postby Martin Surdel » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:12 pm

A challenge issued by John Clements, ARMA Director – our statement

On Feb 7th 2010 Krzysztof Kruczyński officially resigned as the chief of ARMA-PL. His reasons are explained in an attached letter which is a direct translation of his post on ARMA-PL forum. This resignation was met with a response from John Clements, where the ARMA Director issued a challenge to Krzysztof and anyone whom he wished to bring during his visit in Poland in September 2010. This response is also attached below.

More than 20 people were ready to take up this challenge. New chief of ARMA-PL – Maciej Talaga – did everything to accommodate the needs of John Clements and to organize the meeting in Warsaw where such an event could take place. He also tried to negotiate the rules under which the fights would be fought, but this correspondence did not receive a reply. When everything was almost ready (a gym was rented, accommodation arranged, and money for air ticket collected), on Aug 1st John Clements unexpectedly cancelled his seminar and event in Poland, citing his business travel to Denmark as an excuse.

We were present both in Rzeszow (where we took part in the 2nd World Scientific Congress of Martial Arts and Combat Sports) and in Warsaw (on excellent event organized by Maciej Talaga), waiting for the possibility of meeting John Clements, but to no avail. ARMA Director – the person who issued a challenge, set the dates and place – was missing, and, more importantly, to this day has not shown any intent to pursue this issue to its resolution.

However, coming from the nation with long tradition of gentlemanly and honourable conduct, we take such challenges to heart, and do not consider them trifle matters.

Thereby we wish to inform anyone whom it might concern, that whenever John Clements comes to Europe to hold a seminar, some of us still intend to take him up on the challenge that he himself issued and failed to live up to, hoping sincerely that he will not withdraw again.

Jan Chodkiewicz, Fechtschule Gdańsk, Vice-president of FEDER
Krzysztof Kruczyński, former Chief of ARMA-PL, Vice-president of FEDER
Maciej Talaga, Chief of ARMA-PL
Bartłomiej Walczak, founder and former Chief of ARMA-PL
Adam Marek, President of FEDER – Polish Federation of Historical European Martial Arts
Tomasz Maziarz, Ringschule Wrocław, Vice-president of FEDER
Marcin Surdel, Vectir Gliwice, Vice-president of FEDER



ARMA Poland Chief Krzysztof Kruczyński Resignation
febuary 2010


(this is a corrected translation of the original post, a link below leads to the original version of translation)

Welcome,

And goodbye. On the 7th of February I officially resigned from membership in ARMA and as a consequence I am not the ARMA-PL chief anymore.

What convinced me to make such a sudden and unexpected decision? The person of John Clements. His lack of modesty was very hard to me and finally become unbearable. John, who without doubts has knowledge and skills, didn’t let himself be verified. He closed himself in his Organization and does not let in anybody from other organizations, and for his students it is hard to beat their Master. So John is “invincible” and likes to underscore that. Personally it bothers me, I was raised in a different way.

Also what is worrying me is the direction in which ARMA drifts. I don’t see any specific goal which my ex-School wants achieve. I agree that sometimes a breakthrough discovery happens, i.e. frequens motus is really good and helpful in combat. The problem is that I was learning the same stuff a year earlier at the FEDER Camp in Srebrna Góra. And nobody tried to keep it secret.

The Big Secret, meaning the ARMA concealment of its “breakthrough” discoveries was another aspect which tired me. Everything was confidential and nothing could be told to anyone. Personally my opinion is that it is the sharing of knowledge that is the key to reconstruct HEMA, no matter the logo that someone wears.
(…)

KK Resignation PDF:
http://www.arma.lh.pl/smf/index.php?act ... attach=523

John Clements ARMA Director Challenge
february 2010


(emphasis added)

(...)

Since you have absurdly asserted publicly that I, who have been practicing
martial arts literally since before you were born, am somehow avoiding
encounters with outsiders, I invite you to come and match me in person when
I visit Poland in September 2010. Bring anyone you choose. I will show you
exactly why I am the expert I am at armed fighting arts
--- something I
might point out has been attested to both on video and in audio by the very
ex students now influencing you.

I look forward to crossing weapons with anyone who questions the skills I
have demonstrated in 14 countries and which have earned me the reputation I
have --- the same expertise which trained the very people whose spell you
have now sadly fallen under.

So, if the new anti-ARMA mantra by disgruntled and bitter ex members is to
be that I am avoiding sparring non members, bring it on. It will be fun to
see who avoids whom.


(...)

J.C Answer PDF: http://www.arma.lh.pl/smf/index.php?act ... attach=399

ARMA –PL Forum topic : http://www.arma.lh.pl/smf/index.php?topic=327.0

william_cain_iii
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Postby william_cain_iii » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:33 pm

Oh dear.
"The hardest enemy to face is he whose presence you have grown accustomed to."

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CalebChow
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Postby CalebChow » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:05 pm

Wish I could read Polish, but even then I probably wouldn't get the whole picture of what's going on. :?

That being said, surely ARMA Poland is aware of what John was doing in Denmark?
I'm not trying to undermine the importance of this challenge, but I wouldn't consider the things John was doing in Denmark to be a trivial matter either.

Hopefully we'll still see the challenge come through eventually, the last footage I've seen of John in action was quite some time ago!

Either way, the last thing I want is for this to turn into yet another bitter situation for ARMA.
For the sake of all other ARMA members and the reconstruction of the arts as a whole, I hope this whole thing is resolved without too many hard feelings, even if it means someone having to take it for the team.

Just my thoughts.
"...But beware the Juggler, to whom the unseemliest losses are and who is found everywhere in the world, until all are put away." - Joachim Meyer

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:48 pm

I'm agreeing with Caleb. While they may be miffed, we all know what was going on in Denmark, and that it was sudden. So acting otherwise surely isn't helpful to the situation. What ever the outcome, I hope for as little hard feelings as possible.

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Greg Coffman
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Postby Greg Coffman » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:00 pm

I don't believe John C spends very much time on this forum anymore, so this might not be the best way to get this message to him.

It's bad luck that the Denmark project came up during a time that he had made plans to meet with you. He had to cancel some of his other plans as well. I'm sure that if another opportunity arises John would be willing to try again to meet. As it was, it sounded like the "challenge" had a lot to do with being convenient; since John was going to be there anyways, it would have been convenient for him to meet with you but that wasn't the reason for the trip.

On the other hand, I understand if you take this seriously and personally. It's too bad you haven't heard back from him. I hope he gets back to you soon.

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Stacy Clifford
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:33 pm

One question: When John Clements canceled the trip on August 1st, did you attempt to address this subject with him directly, in private, at that time before you decided to take your grievance public two months later?
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Bart Walczak
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Postby Bart Walczak » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:30 am

Stacy Clifford wrote:One question: When John Clements canceled the trip on August 1st, did you attempt to address this subject with him directly, in private, at that time before you decided to take your grievance public two months later?


The answer is yes.

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Stacy Clifford
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:05 am

Care to share a copy of that request for the rest of us to see?
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Maciej Talaga
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Postby Maciej Talaga » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:45 pm

Stacy Clifford wrote:Care to share a copy of that request for the rest of us to see?


Greetings,
This will need John Clements' permission. However I can share the e-mails I sent, that contained the requests.
Best regards
'Dum pugnas victor es'
ARMA-PL Warsaw Study Group

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Stacy Clifford
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:51 pm

Maciej Talaga wrote:Greetings,
This will need John Clements' permission. However I can share the e-mails I sent, that contained the requests.
Best regards


The emails you sent are what I was asking for at this point. I agree that you should need John's permission to post his response, but that does not appear to have stopped your comrades from posting what appears to be John's private email to make the challenge above. I don't disagree with your wanting to pursue the challenge, that's perfectly fine with me, but I can certainly disagree with how you go about it. If you're going to drag all of us into this mess by making it public, then I want to see hard facts to support your position when you claim the moral high ground, not some spin-doctored account with quotes taken out of context like a bad political campaign ad. You shouldn't publicize some information if you're not prepared to be asked for all of it. I know John's side of the story and why he felt insulted enough to say such a thing, and in all fairness I'm asking for your side of the story. There's more to why Krzysztof quit less than two weeks after John asked him to consider playing his Free-Scholar Prize than what is in that letter of resignation, and I want to know what happened, on behalf of everyone reading this forum. I also want proof that you exhausted all other means of handing it privately in a dignified manner before turning it into a public spectacle. I'd like to see both sides offer full disclosure, but since you made the decision to go public, the burden is on you to go first. If you can't post John's exact responses then you can summarize and we'll verify privately. I think I'm making a fair request here, and if you disagree then I welcome your explanation why.
0==[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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william_cain_iii
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Postby william_cain_iii » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:34 pm

Stacy, he said that he could provide his portion of the emails, and hasn't implied he wouldn't share them.

Give it time, it'll shake out.
"The hardest enemy to face is he whose presence you have grown accustomed to."

Bart Walczak
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Postby Bart Walczak » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:24 am

Stacy Clifford wrote:I agree that you should need John's permission to post his response, but that does not appear to have stopped your comrades from posting what appears to be John's private email to make the challenge above.


This wasn't his private email, this was an email that he asked to be translated and explicitly made public for all Polish people to see. Get your facts straight before you start accusing other people please.

Stacy Clifford wrote:You shouldn't publicize some information if you're not prepared to be asked for all of it.


We are prepared.

Stacy Clifford wrote:There's more to why Krzysztof quit less than two weeks after John asked him to consider playing his Free-Scholar Prize than what is in that letter of resignation, and I want to know what happened, on behalf of everyone reading this forum.


Is there? You're implying something, say it out loud. And please also remember the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Stacy Clifford wrote: I also want proof that you exhausted all other means of handing it privately in a dignified manner before turning it into a public spectacle.


The "public spectacle" started, when John issued a public challenge.

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Stacy Clifford
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:20 am

Bart Walczak wrote:This wasn't his private email, this was an email that he asked to be translated and explicitly made public for all Polish people to see. Get your facts straight before you start accusing other people please.


The links to documents above require a login to see anything on a forum written in Polish, a language most of us don't speak. If you can make the documents more accessible to your English-speaking audience here then I will gladly recheck and reconsider as necessary.

Bart Walczak wrote:We are prepared.


Fair enough.

Bart Walczak wrote:Is there? You're implying something, say it out loud. And please also remember the post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.


The emails I've seen regarding his prize playing don't indicate to me any of the problems he is suddenly complaining about two weeks later in his resignation. There appears to be more to the story of why he had a change of heart in those two weeks and resigned, otherwise it seems pretty out of the blue if he didn't complain to John about any of this before making his decision. I'm not implying anything, I'm asking. John felt insulted enough to offer a challenge because of something; was it a direct response to that resignation, or was there more in between before that happened?
0==[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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Randall Pleasant
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Postby Randall Pleasant » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:01 am

Stacy

As a moderator speaking to a moderator, I strongly suggest that you close down this extremely silly thread. Out of respect for you I have not closed it down myself. Bart posted this same trash some of the more anti-ARMA forums and even they don't want to mess with this silliness.


Bart

Given the friendship that has been extend to you over the years by John Clement and many other ARMA members I find it hard to believe that you are taking part in such silliness. I personally consider it shameful. I can only wonder as to what Snake has been whispering in your ear.
Ran Pleasant

Bart Walczak
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Postby Bart Walczak » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:20 am

I'm sorry for the files, since I'm the admin of the forum, blame falls on me. Here are the new uploads:

http://www.arma.lh.pl/files/kk_resignation.pdf
http://www.arma.lh.pl/files/jc_answer.pdf


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