Question on vom tag

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Roger Norling
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Postby Roger Norling » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:00 am

Stacy Clifford wrote:--- Your central vision is more closely tied to the thinking part of the brain, which is slower to react, while your peripheral vision is more closely tied to the reflex nervous system because it is better at detecting motion in both light and dark. It's what allows you to react to danger "out of the corner of your eye." --- It's not so easy to train your eyes that way, but it works.


This is a good point and important part that I belive comes with training. It is probably how most people fence. That is also why I nowadays catch things falling from our overstuffed fridge... :)

I came to think of an excercise I have seen and done with staffs, where three people stand at equal distance to each other in a triangle. All three throw their staffs to the person next to them with a commando like "left" or "right". All the time you look straight ahead while trying to catch the staffs by using your peripheral vision alone.

You can do this one-on-one aswell, by looking straight into the opponent's eyes. It can be a bit tricky at first, but it soon flows fairly smoothly.

Excercises such as this one might help train you in using your peripheral vision.
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Jorge Cortines
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Postby Jorge Cortines » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:07 am

Hi Roger!!!

I thought we agreed we can cut from the right vom tag through the 8 lines of attack....
Ok, I still believe you can cut through the 8 lines of attack if you are in the right vom tag as long as you do not rest the blade on the shoulder...

"The number of ways I can attack is certainly not limitless, especially since the masters advise you to first attack from your strong side and you have to move from out of distance into distance. It is possible to attack from the left, but again, it shouldn't be your first choice or what you mostly do."

And how exactly am I not doing as the masters say if I'm throwing a zwerch, krump, shiel to hit on the right(his right side) of my opponent if I'm throwing it from my right vom tag (cutting through the 8 lines of attach from the right vom tag not resting on the shoulder)? I'm still cutting from my right, I do not change my vom tag to the left.... I throw it from the right, my strong side.... The masters do not say don't attack his left or right, they only say try as much as possible to attack using your strong side...

"you are even advised to play on his reading of you."
Could you please share where they say it... All of the Masters advice to conceal your intentions, I don't recall any saying on how to predict, adivinate what he is up to, but the Master do advice on how to stay safe by constant motion, and other useful principles...

"But a good fencer will still recognize your options if you are in zufechten"
We interpret a little different zufechten... however, why bother in zufechten I know you cannot hit me from there (i know this will make a debate)... and can always change what I started in zufechten in krieg...

"no matter what position you are in"
Agree. Here is the matter of discussion I'm not holding a position, posture, guard, posta... I'm in constant movement...

"Frequent motion can make it harder for him to build a plan for attack, but will not necessarily change things when it comes to the first strike, the Vorschlag."
In my experience it does if you are in constant motion... that is why the Masters suggest it... IMO

"In krieg frequent motion relates to keeping the pressure and always keeping and retaking of initiative, ie the Vor"
We interpret different Vor, in krieg frequent motion is about hit whithout getting hit...

"But then you have already been in a bind and have crossed swords. From there, there are only so many ways your opponent can go and you really work with force, weak or strong, here. " Yes, limitless... not only force...

"If you were supposed to do the Vorschlag in continuous motion from left to the right, why would you be told to first attack from your right side? Still, I find quite a few passages in the manuscripts a bit contradictory and open to interpretation"
I've explain you can cut through the 8 lines of attack from the right side in the vom tag that is not resting on the shoulder (and this why not resting the sword onthe shoulder I think is better interpretation than resting it) , so I'm just cutting through the upper left diagonal or left horizontal or lower left diagonal from my right side... No disagreement with the Masters, still cutting from my strong side...

"Zufechten does help, if you use it wisely. It is the whole definition of Zufechten: The distance where you can attack or defend with a step back or forth. The trick is to outsmart your opponent in Zufechten. "
Could you point me where this is written? Thx.
So the whole Art is about outsmarting in zufechten where you cannot actually hit your opponent? Me, thinks the Masters rely on other principles and concepts...

"Of course krieg involves the most technical stuff. That doesn't mean it is preferrable, even if we think it is cooler, while fencing with blunts and protection. Loose all equipment and do it with a sharp... Suddenly not rushing to the Krieg seems like a wise decision."
Is this what the Masters taught? they teached it to be used for the real thing...

"So, constant movement in Zufechten is what both protects you and gives you opportunities for attack. It is the key here. All fighters, no matter what style or weapon do this."
Really? where is it written? Again we understand different the zufechten...

"the advise to strike back and forth a few times and then strike from the same side, since your opponent will expect you to strike from the other side and repeat your pattern."
I understand that you are concealing your intentions, so they are NOT readable, predicted or adivinated....

"But the meisterhau and other aspects of the teachings try to make it easy to protect well and adapt to the situation. And they often involve some reading of your opponent. "
You are not predicting what they will do, you are seeing that they already have initiated the attack at your head, but no prediction...

"And they were likely initially designed to be used against people who didn't know of them. People who probably relied basically on diagonal cuts from above and horisontal cuts. First from the right and probably usually with the long edge. This we often forget. "
This you are supposing, the source teaching never say anything like this, show me proof of this statement... the Masters taught to defeat skillful opponents... Master L even says that if you do as your taught you can ashame another Master.... and he wasn't refering to the klop ones...

"All things combine into giving you better chances of interpreting your opponent's intentions and offer you solutions when you misinterpret them."
But you are not predicting, foreseeing, adivinating the attack, you are seeing it... and performing accordingly...

Regards,
Jorge

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Postby Roger Norling » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:08 am

Hi again Jorge!
I''ll try to respond passage by passage. :)

Yep, you can cut through all eight lines, but the masters of the Liechtenauer tradition quite clearly advise you to strike your first strike, the Vorschlag from your strong side. That is, if you are right handed, first attack from your right (when in Zufechten). There is no doubt about this. On that we agree.

What we disagree a bit about is what that means. Yes, you can cut a high or low zwerchhau or a krumphau or a schielhau from the left to the right, but I believe it is weaker and your single stepping will likely be shorter than with a passing step. Therefore you will not have quite the same range of movement as your opponent. To me this means that you really don't have eight lines for the first strike. But, I am open for discussion here. :)

EDIT: Checking Ringeck he advises:
"Höre waß da schlecht ist / ficht
nitt oben linck / so du recht bist
Vnd ob du linck bist jm rechten
auch ser hinckest"

"Hear what bad is,
Strike not from above and left,
if right-handed you are
and if left-handed
from the right lame you are"

Roughly translated. Then Ringeck continues by saying that you shouldn't strike your first strike from Zufechten from the left if you are right-handed.

"also Wann du mitt zu fechten
zu im kumpst Bist du dann
gerecht vnd mainest den man
zu schlachen So hawe den ersten
hauw nicht von der lingen
sÿtten Wann der ist schwach
vnd magst damit nicht"

Also, from Hs.3227a:

"Hoer was do slecht ist ficht nicht
oben link zo du recht pist / Und ob du link
pist ym rechten sere hinkes/ Auch so vicht
io liber von oben linklichen nider"

END EDIT.

As for the line about "to play on his reading of you", I already described that. That is what the feints, Meyer's third schielhau etc are all about. But, like I said a couple of times, it does not necessarily mean that you are advised to read him. Just that combatants commonly try to do this. It also means you have to try to give as little away as possible, for instance by using the verborgene haw and through frequent motion.

In fact, since you should not wait to take the Vor, and are told to act as if he has no sword in hand, you are pretty much told to not care about his intentions. Which of course is not always so easy to do.

I think you are mixing perspectives a bit, but reading between the lines there are a few things about reading opponents that can be understood. Mainly, that the combatants try to do it. Why else try to hide your intentions?

Also, most people are human, and thus have flaws, little habits that can reveal their intentions. They are more common with less experienced fencers and exploited by those with more. That is why you should notice if your opponent pulls back before striking or thrusting, for instance...

Of course you cannot be hit from zufechten, unless one of you move into krieg. That is why you have to move around constantly... BUT, even if you are constantly moving, you are always in a position that can be read, expected and attacked. That is what the gunners did in bomber aircraft in WWII and it is what duck hunters use; deflection shooting. Not even constant motion provides absolute safety and relying too much on that can leave you vulnerable too, depending on where you apply that concept.

Regarding Krieg, of course constant motion aims at hitting without getting hit. But it does so by keeping the pressure so the opponent cannot "come to strikes".

I will have to get back to you with a proper quote about defining Zufechten. I am in the middle of preparing a birthday party... But, since you should approach your opponent with the left foot leading and follow with an oberhau or a thrust, or lead with the right and follow with an unterhau or a thrust, and you normally strike with the weak that is a pretty good indication of the distance that defines zufechten. And when combat begins, one response is to step back in any angle of your choice. Of course you can step forward as well, but that has no relevance in defining zufechten.

EDIT: I haven't got a proper quote quite yet, but here is a good article discussing Meyer, who is one of the more obviously "mobile" fencing masters, and his advise on guards and distances. http://freifechter.com/longsword.html END EDIT.

Nope, the whole art does NOT revolve around outsmarting your opponent in Zufechten. It involves many other things, including work in krieg and ringen. BUT there is no doubt that you are advised not to rush to krieg. And it is in zufecthen that the fight starts, thus the importance of the Vorschlag. After that you continue pressuring your opponent into defending.

What I am saying is that you move from zufechten to attack, often come into a bind and then, if your opponent is good at defending, often move back into zufechten.
You should work in krieg too, but only with confidence and skill and when you are certain you can defeat your opponent. Otherwise you are both likely to loose a limb.
Again, Hs3227a and other manuscript says that you need to know how to move well back and forth and be ready to balance your opponents stepping, as if on a scale.

You are quite right regarding my theorizing about what people these techniques were designed to be used against and I expressed myself a bit clumpsily. But "Masters" do not necessarily mean masters of the Liechtenauer tradition, or the Ringeck line etc. Even Ringeck says that many masters do not know of the Verborgene Haw and several times refer to fencers who do not know how to defend against the Meister Haw. Hs.3227a mentions how you will lay under you "all the drumming and inventions by the Leychmeistere or play masters, since the five strokes are the foundation of Liechtenauer's art". We do not know for sure what is intended by Masters in the reference you make.

Also, the teachings of Liechtenauer weren't open to anyone. Initially they were kept secret to a selected few. And bits and pieces, like references to puffels and pawels, or Wallerstein's advise on how to rob a peasant reveal that this was not reserved solely for use against the skilled fencers of the Liechtenauer line. It was certainly used against a whole lot of other people. So, even if we can assume that the tradition we study aims at not revealing intentions, it can also be assumed that they tried to manipulate people who tried to read their intentions.

Still, there is certainly a lot of advise on how to use principles and techniques against skilled "Liechtenauer"-fencers too.

Finally, I do not think we disagree much, despite the huge mass of text. Both agree that frequent or constant movement is good. I think we regard zufechten a bit differently. Also I think the word "predict" is a bit misleading. It is in part right, but much more involves reading your opponent.

Have to go now, wish I had the time to write more carefully. :)

Good talking to you!
Last edited by Roger Norling on Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:31 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Alex Bourdas » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:05 am

I'm wondering what you guys think of this passage from Jud Lew:

So merck wann du nahent zu Im kom~est so setz den lincken fuß für vnd halt dein swert mit der flech an dein’ rechten achsel Dritt er dann zu dir vnd drewet dit zuslahen so kum~ du vor vnd spring mit dem rechten fusse wol auf dein rechte seitten vnd Im sprung wende dein swert mit dem gehültze vor deinem haubt das dein dawmen vnden kom~en vnd slag In mit der kurtzen sneiden zu der lincken seitten seins kopffes etc.

"Then note when you come near him, then set your left foot forward and hold your sword with the flat on your right shoulder. If he then steps to you and threatens to strike, then come before him and spring with the right foot well to your right side and, as you spring, turn your sword with the hilt before your head so that your thumb comes under and hit him with the short edge to the left side of his head."
(translation by Christian Tobler)

Here we are specifically told to put our flat on our right shoulder. That sounds to me like a master advising us to rest our blade on our shoulder.

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Postby Roger Norling » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:49 am

Thanks Alex! That's a great quote and pretty much settles the discussion. :)

Of course we don't know how good our Jewish Lion was, or if it was a very smart thing to do, or how common it was. Just as with so many other things when it comes to interpreting the manuscripts.
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Postby Roger Norling » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:04 pm

Regarding reading your opponent.

Meyer says that the guards in the Onset (Zufechten) serve as moments where you evaluate the situation to see if you can attack:

"...This is the chief cause of the invention of the postures, and therefore he who sometimes lies in posture should see what the intention of the other one is, so that he may know better how to catch him in his own devices. This does not happen unless he observes and is sure of his intentions; for this watching demands art and great experience, etc." (transl. by Jeffrey L. Forgeng)

Meyer also says you should only remain in a guard for a very short time; only enough to evaluate the situation, although I think he is on the extreme end of the spectra. From other masters I get the impression that the frequence is a bit lower. He is also a bit different from the early masters in that he basically wrote about fencing in schools, where the thrust was forbidden, something which changes everything. - Bet I will get some responses from some Freifechters here... :)

Also, certain aspects like Meyer's very low and outstretched postures can be interpreted as what the author of the first part of Hs.3227a ridicules as Leychmaisters. Not saying that he in any was wasn't a capable fencer. He clearly was if the rumours are right...

"With their bad parries and wide fencing they try to look dangerous with wide and long strikes that are slow and with these they perform strikes that miss and create openings in themselves.

They have no proper reach in their fencing and that belongs not to real fencing but only to school fencing and the exercises for their own sake. But real fencing goes straight and is simple in all things without holding back or being restricted just as if a string had been tied or as if they had been connected."


---

Also know that when you fence with another you should step with caution and be sure in them [the steps or movements] as if you were standing on a scale and adapt accordingly if you go forward or backward as is fitting. Easy and quickly with good heart and good knowledge or sense you should go and without fear, as you will know hereafter.

You should also show reach in your fencing as is suitable and not step too wide, so that you can pull back and be ready for another step backwards or forwards."


There is another related quote that I can't find right now...

EDIT: Here it is:

"There are many play masters [Leichmeystern] who despise it and say that what comes out of the turning [Winden] is very weak and calls it “of the shortened sword” since it is so easy and uncomplicated. And look at those who use the long sword and who goes about it with outstretched arms and outstretched sword in order to look dangerous and to look good, using all the strength of the body. It is terribly embarrassing to see someone thus stretched out as if he wanted to run after a hare. And this has nothing to do with turning in [Winden] or Liechtenauer’s art, since this art does not require strength. If it was not an art, then the strong would always win."

It would be interesting to know what the various masters would have thought of each other, especially the early ones compared to the later ones. Also, it would have been interesting to know more about the Leichmeysters... I have a theory in the making that might turn into an article some day.
Last edited by Roger Norling on Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Sripol Asanasavest » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:41 pm

I think they should challenge other styles to compete and fight against the European fighting styles to show the world how good they really are. I think that's a good way to spread the reputation of how good it is. European powers is one of the most successful nations colonizing other nations, so I'm sure it will fare well. Over a decade ago most people didn't even know much about Krabi Krabong or Muay Thai. They thought that it couldn't be any better than other martial arts, Chinese or otherwise. It was partly because they didn't want other people to copy them and said they invented the art, so they kept it a secret on how they go about fighting, but were still showing off mock fighting and demonstration in order to get people to show interests in the art. Even a lot of Thai people didn't know how it really worked because of the secrecy. But more and more Westerners took a closer look and saw that there is more to this art than meets the eyes. Taking a look back in the history, a lot of people said this art is worthless (particularly the Chinese and Japanese), and so they send their masters to fight them. They would always loose and get pissed off. I think they should set up an event and have a dual between different arts. That's a good way to get the message out IMO. :)

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Postby RayMcCullough » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:55 pm

Alex Bourdas wrote:I'm wondering what you guys think of this passage from Jud Lew:

So merck wann du nahent zu Im kom~est so setz den lincken fuß für vnd halt dein swert mit der flech an dein’ rechten achsel Dritt er dann zu dir vnd drewet dit zuslahen so kum~ du vor vnd spring mit dem rechten fusse wol auf dein rechte seitten vnd Im sprung wende dein swert mit dem gehültze vor deinem haubt das dein dawmen vnden kom~en vnd slag In mit der kurtzen sneiden zu der lincken seitten seins kopffes etc.

"Then note when you come near him, then set your left foot forward and hold your sword with the flat on your right shoulder. If he then steps to you and threatens to strike, then come before him and spring with the right foot well to your right side and, as you spring, turn your sword with the hilt before your head so that your thumb comes under and hit him with the short edge to the left side of his head."
(translation by Christian Tobler)

Here we are specifically told to put our flat on our right shoulder. That sounds to me like a master advising us to rest our blade on our shoulder.


I would like to see the original. I have seen other translations from folks that ended up being something totally different. Which in turn made for a different technique than what worked. It did however fit the translators current understanding of what everyone thought the technique was.

Then again, some Sylvan sprite might have whispered into Toblers ear while he pondered the original text and told him what to write. :roll:

Do you have a lind to the original?

Thanks
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"All fencing is done with the aid of God." Doebringer 1389 A.D.

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Postby Roger Norling » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:04 pm

Two transcriptions are linked here http://www.hammaborg.de/en/fechtbuecher/start.php

Just a very brief browsing of Dierk Hagedorn's transcriptions show similar sequences for the Zwerch. I haven't looked deeper yet.

"Merck der Zwer haw pricht die hut vom tag vnd alle haw die vom tag oben nider gehawe~ werden / vnd die zwer die treib also Wann du mit dem zufechten zum man geest Steet er dann gegen dir vnd helt sein swert mit auffgerichten armen übersich hoch über dein [dem?] haubt In der hut vnd wart auf dich
So merck wann du nahent zu Im komest so setz den lincken fuß für vnd halt dein swert mit der flech an dein’ rechten achsel Dritt er dann zu dir vnd drewet dit zuslahen so kum~ du vor vnd spring mit dem rechten fusse wol auf dein rechte seitten vnd Im sprung wende dein swert mit dem gehültze vor deinem haubt das dein dawmen vnden komen vnd slag In mit der kurtzen sneiden zu der lincken seitten seins kopffes etc."


It appears to be strongly related to the use of Zwerch. Which is interesting since it quite clearly will show your intentions...
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Postby Alex Bourdas » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:27 am

Ray, I don't suppose you know where to find these translations you mentioned? I can't seem to find any other translations. The two transcriptions Roger posted both agree with Tobler's transcription. I suppose it depends on if on is the correct translation for an. Until I see a contradictory translation I'll have to accept Tobler's.

Roger, maybe this is only mentioned in conjunction with the Zwerch because the Zwerch is the strike that benefits the most from resting the flat. However, as you say, if you only rest the flat before launching a Zwerch, the opponent can read your intentions. Surely that would lend support to you resting your flat on the shoulder all the time you're in Vom Tag, regardless of if you're about to throw a Zwerch or not?

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Postby Roger Norling » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:36 am

Alex Bourdas wrote:Ray, I don't suppose you know where to find these translations you mentioned? I can't seem to find any other translations. The two transcriptions Roger posted both agree with Tobler's transcription. I suppose it depends on if on is the correct translation for an. Until I see a contradictory translation I'll have to accept Tobler's.

Roger, maybe this is only mentioned in conjunction with the Zwerch because the Zwerch is the strike that benefits the most from resting the flat. However, as you say, if you only rest the flat before launching a Zwerch, the opponent can read your intentions. Surely that would lend support to you resting your flat on the shoulder all the time you're in Vom Tag, regardless of if you're about to throw a Zwerch or not?


That's the trick question isn't it? But, after having skimmed the transcription by Hagedorn very briefly, it seems as if resting on the flat is mentioned specifically in relation to the Zwerch and not otherwise, which makes me think that perhaps he didn't care much for if the opponent knew what strike he would be using. Instead he may have relied on better reach, timing etc. Or, maybe he was good at changing into another strike from resting on the flat, as previously discussed... Not everything can be learnt from reading the manuscripts alone.
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Andreas Stahlberg
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Postby Andreas Stahlberg » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:58 am

Hi guys

This is from Hans Von Speyer's rendition of Liechtenauer's unarmed longsword (21r):
"Mer der zwer haulb bricht die hutt von tag vnd alle haulb die von tag oben nider gehaulben werden vnd die zwir die tribe also wan du mit dem zu vechten zu dem man gest stett er dan gege~ dir vnd helt sin schwertt mit vß gerechte~ armen vbersich hoch vber sin haupt In der hutt vnd wartt vff dich so merck wen du nohest zu im kümpst so setz dinen lincken fus fur vnd halt din schwertt mit der flech an diner rechte~ achseln tritt er dan zu dir vnd treütt dir zu schlagen so küm du vor vnd spring mit dem rechten fus woll vff din rechte site~ vnd im spring wend din schwertt mit dem gehultz vor dinem haupt das dine dümen vnte~ kümen vnd schlag In mit der kurtzen schnide~ zu der lincke~ siten sines kopffs ~~"

This transcription is taken from Hammaborg's excellent site and credit for the work is due the equally excellent Dierk Hagedorn. The emphasis was put in by me.

I believe this text has kinship to both the so called Von Danzig text and Lew's text, and it is interesting that the flat on the shoulder was left in. The passage is also directly concerned with the Zwerchhau.

/Andreas ÖFHF

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Postby Andreas Stahlberg » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:59 am

And yes, the Swedes are teaming up on you... :lol:

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Postby Jonathan Hill » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:31 am

Let me play around with German terminology for a bit because I don’t get to do that much. Appologies if I butcher this.

Roger Norling wrote:... which makes me think that perhaps he didn't care much for if the opponent knew what strike he would be using. Instead he may have relied on better reach, timing etc. Or, maybe he was good at changing into another strike from resting on the flat, as previously discussed... Not everything can be learnt from reading the manuscripts alone.


(perhaps not as applicable to this quote…) Or you rely on the fact that your opponent knows what attack will come at him in indes if he attacks in vor. This can either prevent your opponent from taking the vor, or lead him into attacking a well prepared position if he does not recognize the danger. If he recognizes the danger and changes guard or position to find an opening you can take that opportunity to create your own advantage over him (a form of Stringere – an Italian concept.)

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Postby RayMcCullough » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:54 am

Andreas Stahlberg wrote:And yes, the Swedes are teaming up on you... :lol:


LOL , I see! That's cool guys. I'll check in on the translation and get back to you.

Hey, if i'm wrong I'm wrong. :D

Later
Ray
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