How was the term "Master" bestowed in RMA?

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C.Scott Relleve
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Postby C.Scott Relleve » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:27 am

In essence, nobody is truly a master and we're all eternal students to the art, which is I believe an excerpt from Bruce Lee (who never had once called himself master of anything).

Those are are the amongst the most experienced of all, is aged, has practical knowledge in the arts he had practiced most of his years (especially via a lineage), and is known to have success in fights would probably deserve the "master" title from his well-experienced peers who also had years of practice and application.

It's frustrating that this title, which should be deemed prestigious and only very few should deservingly have, are being overused by self-proclaimed "masters" who uses the title as a shield from conflict (to intimidate others), acquire students and their money for impractical, possible drawn out lessons, and benefit from the respect associated with the title, respect they do not deserve.

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Gene Tausk
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Postby Gene Tausk » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:36 pm

"It's frustrating that this title, which should be deemed prestigious and only very few should deservingly have, are being overused by self-proclaimed "masters" who uses the title as a shield from conflict (to intimidate others), acquire students and their money for impractical, possible drawn out lessons, and benefit from the respect associated with the title, respect they do not deserve."

Well said and I could not agree more!
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Randall Pleasant
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Postby Randall Pleasant » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:38 pm

Another full agreement here!

Attempting to use the title "Master" today within HEMA is not unlike getting a PhD from a mail order company.
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NathanMeidell
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"Master" as current forerunner in the Art

Postby NathanMeidell » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:48 pm

Just going over older threads and had some thoughts on this...

I get the sense from the research and schools that are out there, that there are a few individuals more respected, that are more experienced practitioners and standing experts.

Wouldn't these forerunning figures be our equivalents of the masters? These are the people that are sought out today as teachers, whether in online curriculae, or in physical classes.
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Randall Pleasant
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Re: "Master" as current forerunner in the Art

Postby Randall Pleasant » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:12 pm

Nathan

There are individuals who's skill and knowledge make them seem like masters when compared to most of us. However, when compared to the historical masters these same individuals fall way short. Out of respect to the historical masters the title is best not used. Anyone who attempts to use the title today will not receive our respect.
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NathanMeidell
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Interesting thread.

Postby NathanMeidell » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:26 pm

It will be very interesting to see how the art develops in the coming years, considering its recent resurgence and advancements. Along with that will be the emergence of additional works from its prominent contemporary practitioners.

It really lends itself to an exciting blend of modern methodologies and traditional frameworks. I can certainly see the reluctance to even approach the title bestowed on men like Fiore and Liechteneur.
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Postby Stacy Clifford » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:47 pm

The main thing to remember is that even though it seems like the best of us are really good and know a lot, this revival is still really less than twenty years old, and the vast majority of it has happened within the last ten years. We're still refining our ways of interpreting the sources and still finding out how much is out there. It will indeed be interesting to see how things develop, but it's just premature for anyone to claim mastery in a field that is still actively being defined.
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Sripol Asanasavest
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Postby Sripol Asanasavest » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:21 am

I think just like any other studies and sciences it is subjected to quackery, myths and misconceptions. Some quack probably thought he knew what he was talking about, so claimed himself/herself to be an expert on the subjects and then called himself/herself a master, but really have no clues on what he is talking about. I'll give you an example, but it's not related to ARMA. Many, many years ago doctors said by eating right and doing a lot of exercise, it should prevent high cholesterol and diabetes. But many doctors will tell you that the diseases is caused by genetics not by eating too much. People who have the genes for high cholesterol have to take pills because no matter how much exercise they do and watch what they are eating, they are going to die eventually, no way around it. The same thing with diabetes. People who have the gene for it will eventually have to get insulin shots. The truth is fat and thin people have an equal chance of inheriting the bad genes. Our perception of what looks healthy and not has really been skewed by the media. You can be chubby and heavy and still be healthy (look at professional football players), but it may make you easily tired when doing a lot of vigorous exercise. You can also be thin and be really sick, or not. You can't really determine if someone is healthy or not base on how heavy and how thin people are, unless of course you obese. Obesity is not just heavy, but people who have way too much body fat, which is really too much and unhealthy. Sorry for getting a bit of topic, but by looking at any studies and sciences, or whatever subjects there are, there will always be some quacks, who like fame and fortunes, self-proclaim themselves to be an expert in order to gain a group of followers. This sort of things just isn't happened with regular people, but people with P.h.d. also say things that are down right wrong. Just because someone has a P.h.d. or read a lot doesn't make them correct. It's people who love to hear themselves talk! [chuckle] :lol: :wink:

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:59 am

Sripol, not only is this off topic it is also 90% wrong.

If you honestly want to continue this line of discussion I would recommend that we go to PMs about it.

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Postby Sripol Asanasavest » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:38 am

I'm talking about the present day people who called themselves masters, and even back then, who is to say some of them didn't just create a style, but have no actual real life and death combat. It was the same back then as it is today. That's why you got to be careful when you read something. A lot of stuff floating out there is absolutely incorrect. People back then were prone to their own bias and prejudice as people today and love to hear themselves talk. However, I'm not sure about some of the scholars that ARMA study.

I'm not sure if other cultures have the tradition of calling some separate group of people masters. I think the term really is trying to separate those people from the ordinary to make them seemed god-like (like they have supernatural power), which is kindda delusional IMO. Anybody that has ever often fight for real know about the importance of respecting your enemies and opponents. If you get complacent, you and your men might get slaughtered or your face pounded in.... It makes me wonder why anyone with a lot of experience and fights on him would called himself a master. That's where I'm getting at. It's not like they are invincible more than any other people. The people who called themselves masters know it. In Thailand we don't called Muay Thai and Krabi Krabong masters, masters really. We called them Kru, which roughly translated to teacher or instructor.

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Randall Pleasant
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Postby Randall Pleasant » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:52 pm

Sripol

There were indeed quacks during the Renaissance and Medieval periods. A number of the historical masters that we study make reference to these false masters. There is a possibility that one of these false masters did write a fight book and that the book still exist. However, all of the historical fight books from the Renaissance and Medieval periods that we know of do appear to have been written by people with solid knowledge of the subject (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Not all of the people who wrote the historical fight books were known as masters in their day, such as George Silver, but by the standard of our knowledge today in comparasion to them, they were indeed masters.
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Sripol Asanasavest
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Postby Sripol Asanasavest » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:57 pm

I guess the term master is sometime use as a sign of respect to show that the person is a genius, or very talented and skillful. I think people today get confuse when they talk about stuff like this...like there is some kind of superhuman power behind every martial artist. It's not superhuman powers; it's a lot of hard work (probably a lot of sweat, blood and bruises, also).

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Aaron Pynenberg
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Postby Aaron Pynenberg » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:39 pm

Yes,

In many ways we attach to much exteraneous BS to the term "Master" today. If someone declares themesleves a "Master" than I would highly doubt the validity of such a claim.

However, If I saw and learned, through personal observation or the opportunity to see them, hear them, and fight with them, than I suppose I might come to the conclusion that they were, in comparison to myself or my peers, Indeed a "Master" of the skills that I am looking to learn.

They I suppose could be..depending. What bugs us to no end are these folks who claim to be a "Master" of our arts through a background in some other arts, like sport fencing or baroque fencing studies post 18th century, or worse through the Asian arts. These folks are highly suspect not because of who they are or what "team" they are on..that's all not that important in the long run. (or is it?)

The bigger question is how long have they been studying our sources, fighting with earnest energy using "intent" and a set of core values that in the end, hold physical performance and mastery as a standard.

You also cannot gain such revelation without training using a minimum standard of protective gear, and by using accurate reproduction arms designed with the aspects of performance that the original weapons had.

Then you have to constantly question your motives, intent and approach against the prism of what we "think" the "real" combat arts were like. Then guard always against the dangers of becoming overly "sportified" and avoid the common traps of training just to win sparring points..

Like it or not the true Arts of Mars are gone.."poof"! And no matter how awesome or sucky we are as a whole, we will never really "know" for sure will we?

In the end will we as a whole, have individuals whom perform at levels so beyond the rest that the group they represent declares a level of "mastery" or will that group instead try and rip those bright stars down to be a little dimmer? I don't know but I hope it's that first part and not the last.

If someone does earn the rank I am sure that specific "Master" will not do anything different than he/she was doing prior to getting such a title. It's not like the heavens will open up and two cherubs will fly down and lay a crown of laurels about the practicing individual..hmm i think i saw that somewhere...?- train hard-AP
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Sripol Asanasavest
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Postby Sripol Asanasavest » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:36 pm

I think people who have first hand experience in the actual life and death combats are the ones people should pay attention to....

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CalebChow
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Postby CalebChow » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:18 pm

Sripol Asanasavest wrote:people who have first hand experience in the actual life and death combats


That would be Aaron Pynenberg, among others in ARMA. 8)
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