Short intoduction and question about the equipment

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Michael Pertsinakis
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Short intoduction and question about the equipment

Postby Michael Pertsinakis » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:59 am

I am very happy to be here.

I was always drawn towards the martial nature of life and following that path, I came across various systems of mostly unarmed combat. However, the medieval sword and its use was always pestering my mind. I was enjoying the aesthetics of a fine sword, the movements of the fighters and I was peeking through the pages of illustrated manuscripts with glee. My only contact with "sword fighting" was epee, which I quickly quit, because I felt that it was not what I had in my mind.

Out of the blue, I made a connection with the ARMA guys in Athens and I immediately loved the savage grace of the longsword. So it seems that this is what I was looking for, regarding the sword.

It seems that I have the majority of the protective equipment. Fencing mask, gauntlets, groin protective etc. So I want to buy a decent waster for start.

Before progressing to a metal waster, I now focus on buying a nylon one. I used the searching utility of the forum but I have not yet made up my mind. So the two potential candidates are Synthetic Longsword - Type II, by Purple Heart Armory and Rawlings Sparring Sword by the Knight Shop.

I would value your opinion between these two wasters (or a third one if you consider better).

Thank you very much for your time.

MP

Jonathan Hill
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Postby Jonathan Hill » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:45 am

Do you plan on practicing with a partner or solo? What has made you desire a nylon over say, wood?

The nylons are too light, too whippy and they don’t play right, the wood is a lot closer in weight and behavior to steel and personally I would recommend wood. The only reason I can see going for nylon is because you plan to work with a group that favors nylon, which may be the case.

Here’s a good supplier of wooden ones, the price point is about the same as nylon. - http://www.newstirlingarms.com/shop/cat ... px?catid=3

Between the two the Knight Shop is better in my opinion, and they are actively working on making it ‘perform better’ meaning weight and stiffness, but this can also lead to some issues. With those simulators you may not know which ‘generation’ you are buying. Naturally the newer ones are better than the older ones.

Michael Pertsinakis
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Postby Michael Pertsinakis » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:43 pm

Thank you for your reply. I have a training partner, so we will use the wasters on sparring also.

As for your question, yes, the group in Athens uses as far as I saw nylon wasters. However, this is not prohibiting, since I will meet them only once per month or so, because I live in another city. Therefore, if wooden wasters as superior to the nylon ones,we will turn towards that direction.

MP

william_cain_iii
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Postby william_cain_iii » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:07 pm

Gonna disagree with Jonathan a bit on the behavior of wood or nylon vs steel.

Wood behaves atrociously in the bind. It's slippery and doesn't grip very well, and it's also FAR more rigid than steel is in terms of blade behavior. Having bouted and trained with wood, steel, and nylon, I can assert that neither wood nor nylon behave like steel, but nylon is -closer- because it at least has the ability to grip in the bind.

That said, the Rawlings synthetics are atrocious. Even the 'stiffer' version is very whippy and doesn't bind well. Whereas the wood will just slip and slide in ridiculous ways, a rawlings will just push/bend right through another one. The Synth longsword II from purpleheart is a good deal stiffer and will behave more reasonably, but is less forgiving of the thrust.

The best tool I've seen for beginners that's widely available and cheap is the hanwei federschwert sold on kult of athena. 111 dollars, steel blade, thrust-safe. Can't beat it for the entry level.
"The hardest enemy to face is he whose presence you have grown accustomed to."

Michael Pertsinakis
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Postby Michael Pertsinakis » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:47 am

The best tool I've seen for beginners that's widely available and cheap is the hanwei federschwert sold on kult of athena. 111 dollars, steel blade, thrust-safe. Can't beat it for the entry level.


thank you for your input. I would think that it is a bit premature to purchase steel, due to our inexperience. I prefer to learn the basics and then get a good albion sword. However, buying a steel waster now is tempting :wink:

MP

Hans Meier
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Postby Hans Meier » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:12 am

Michael Pertsinakis wrote:
The best tool I've seen for beginners that's widely available and cheap is the hanwei federschwert sold on kult of athena. 111 dollars, steel blade, thrust-safe. Can't beat it for the entry level.


thank you for your input. I would think that it is a bit premature to purchase steel, due to our inexperience. I prefer to learn the basics and then get a good albion sword. However, buying a steel waster now is tempting :wink:


There is nothing wrong with starting out with steel and the hanwei longsword foil is great. personally I only use wood on the pell because I'd hate it if a pricey sword broke (and they all break eventually).

If you want nylon, look here: http://www.ferruza.com/nylon/en/gallery.html
They aren't necessarily safer (watch the videos) than steel but cheaper and last longer than any wooden waster. Besides, safety has nothing to do with the weapon and everything do do with your attitude.


Cheers, Hans.

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J. Scott Steflik
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Postby J. Scott Steflik » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:02 am

thank you for your input. I would think that it is a bit premature to purchase steel, due to our inexperience. I prefer to learn the basics and then get a good albion sword. However, buying a steel waster now is tempting :wink:


The Hanwei federschwert is a great training tool. I know of a few groups that are using those exclusively for starting people out.

The only thing I use a wood waster for is when I'm doing pell work at home - my pell is a padded cedar post and though a good steel blunt should hold up, a well made wood waster is going to hurt less (financially) than if I broke a steel or nylon blunt.

For general training I'm using the federschwert an increasing amount (more and more group members are getting them). I bought a pair of them so I'd always have someone to train with. Aluminum wasters from Swordcrafters are nice tainers that hold up marvelously and react a lot more realistically than wooden wasters as well. Other aluminum wasters I've seen have been *crap* but the Swordcrafters wasters are nice.

Michael Pertsinakis
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Postby Michael Pertsinakis » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:02 pm

Thank you all for your answers and your time.

For the time being, we decided on purchasing synthetic ones, since we plan to work with the ARMA people in Athens. Therefore, I contacted "Like Steel
" and I wait their answers.

MP

Roger Norling
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Postby Roger Norling » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:08 pm

Whatever training tool you choose it will have its advantages and disadvantages. It all depends on what you want to do.

Personally, I have never tried a decent wooden waster although I am sure there are such ones. In my club wooden wasters were used by beginners just for formal training. Some modified shinai were used for sparring but nowadays everyone uses nylons and steel. We work with both, both in technical training and when sparring.

The good thing about nylons is that you can spar with very little protection. A mask, lacrosse gloves, throat protection and a cup is actually enough if you have a good nylon waster. BUT, and this is important, the early designs were very rigid and stiff, making them dangerous when thrusting and gave them too much punch for striking hard against lacrosse gloves.

I will be adding reviews of several nylon wasters and steel federschwert to the hroarr.com site soon, but shortly I can say that the best I have tried are hand made by Pentti of Gothenburgh Historical Fencing School. Unfortunately he no longer produces these. However, the little known "Norrlandswastern" is the next in line. These too are hand made and can be designed according to your specifications. They even have a hilt of birch tree.
A few good things about these is that they do have a flex in the thrusts, but aren't wobbly. Also, the do not stay noticably bent while sparring, like the KnightShops currently do. In my opinion though, none can beat the nylon that was used in the Pentti wasters. But, the maker of Norrlandswastern is looking into using that type of nylon as well.

Image
Image

Contact: plastsmeden@gmail.com

The Knightshop wasters are still a bit too wobbly but will have a stiffer blade within the next few weeks and a steel cross have also been designed and will be available. With the final adjustments I think they will be very good. They have taken all requests and comments very seriously and continue to develop their product. Still, I would wait a little bit for the new ones.

I have a PurpleHearts waster as well and although it is good for exercises, I feel that it is too stiff and point heavy for sparring with little protection. Other than that, it is well made. The With Intent wasters that you mention are quite similar to these in how they perform. Be careful with the thrusts and strikes. They can cause damage.

Of the three, the Knightshop waster is clearly the longest with three inches more than the PurpleHearts waster. The Norrlandswaster can be had at any length though and I heard rumours of a montante.

Oh, and stay away from the Cold Steel wasters. They are dangerous and weird...

No matter what wasters you choose, make sure to use similar wasters against each other. A Knightshop waster does not work well against a With Intent or PurpleHearts waster.

As for feders, the Hanweis are decent, but there have been quite a few incidents in hard sparring where the blades have snapped. I have contacted them about this issue but have received no response. If you get one, make sure you get the 2nd generation. The first was incredibly wobbly.

A better choice is Jan Chodkiewicz feders at http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/ The price is about 180-200€ which is half the cost of an Albion Meyer. And they can really take a beating.

If you have the cash, the Albion Meyers are wonderful. Good hardening and delightful in the hand. I love it. The pointy ricasso is a bit dangerous though and I don't really understand why it is designed like that when it is supposed to be a sparring weapon.

Also some really like the Arms & Armor Fechtbuch sword although I haven't tried it yet. http://www.armor.com/train209.html

Like I said, I will be adding a proper review soon, but here are some of my thoughts.

Good luck with whatever you choose! [/url]
Last edited by Roger Norling on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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william_cain_iii
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Postby william_cain_iii » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:20 pm

I'll be getting Ensifers from now on, for my steel needs.

I like their Messer, and I'm extremely fond of their sparring foils (I refuse to use Federschwert for anything but the specific hanwei model. It's a neologism, not a historical term).

I really WANT their Joachim Meyer version, but I lack the money for that kind of investment, so I'll probably go with the Standard model and the light blade. Gorgeous all the same.
"The hardest enemy to face is he whose presence you have grown accustomed to."

Roger Norling
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Postby Roger Norling » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:11 pm

I fully understand your allergy to the term "federschwert". However, I feel that it is used so widely and everyone knows what we mean by it, so I decided to go with this anyways. And, it has been in use for about a 100 years now, so it is a pretty established neologism. :)

Anyhow, here is a video review of the Hanwei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ad7les38fw
Quarterstaff instructor
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william_cain_iii
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Postby william_cain_iii » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:31 pm

Also, a slight counter-argument to "plastic means little protection is needed."

Plastic gets chewed up, even against other plastic. This, combined with the general whippiness of most plastic wasters, means you can get some very nasty surface injuries. I strongly advise always sparring with at least a light, long-sleeved shirt when fencing with plastic. It is not unknown for welting and even mild blistering to occur with some particularly wicked hits. I myself have been struck so hard on the bicep that I began bleeding and had to stop practicing lest I contaminate the mats we were working on. Even a light shirt would have stopped my skin from getting flayed open like that.

As always, the first virtue is control, and her handmaid is respect.
"The hardest enemy to face is he whose presence you have grown accustomed to."

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:28 pm

Very much true. I know lots of people who have had much more injuries (both quantity and severity) than I have due to these "more safe" trainers.

william_cain_iii
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Postby william_cain_iii » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:02 pm

The one thing I've noticed is, regardless of whatever organization is doing the talking, there is always a big series of questions about beginning equipment in terms of both safety and simulation equipment.

I know ARMA doesn't use this board as its primary message service, but it's often the first place potential ARMA students interact with the organization. Has any thought been given to making a Sticky or Announcement thread with an overview of equipment ranging from the budget end (Hanwei Tinker, the Hanwei Feder) to the mid (Ensifer's standard feders) to the high end (Arms and Armor's trainers, Albions, Ensifer's Joachim Meyer)?

It really would be worth the time it took to put together, I think.
"The hardest enemy to face is he whose presence you have grown accustomed to."

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:08 pm

While this is a good suggestion the problem is that no one reads the stickies anyway.

All they have to do would be a search as well.


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