Striking Combinations in Ringen

[Steven Ott]

I don't know about that. One of the reasons for wearing gloves was to make the sport less bloody. Bare fists, especialy when you snap the wrist, cut facial tissue relativley easily. There were reports of early matches where boxers had pieces of skin hanging off of their head. When the UFC was into it's second or third show, bare fist punching was made illegal and only open hand strikes where allowed without gloves. The padding does lenghten the impact of the blow, making it less likely to cause concussion. And vaseline on the face causes blows to slide off.

[Joshua Cook]

I think this has taken a turn that I was not intending. I was not trying to make an argument for Ringen as a striking art. Nor was I asking why our ancestors preferred grappling to striking. It is very evident from the source materials that our Renaissance forbears were predominately wrestlers. Grappling is more efficient than striking as history shows. Bareknuckle bouts under Queensbury prize rules often lasted into the hundreds of rounds, a single fight going on for quite a long time, and ending only in a knockout. A wrestling technique, on the other hand, can force an enemy to submit within seconds. This has all been well argued before and I am not disputing any of these facts.

What I am presenting here though, is the striking methods used to open an opponent for the wrestling. I think our ancestors knew that it was easier to stun an opponent first to open him up for grappling. Hence why they used a simple 1-2 combo to allow this to happen. This theory is also supported by Ringeck's section on wrestling. As for reasoning as to why there aren't more extensive combinations, I think that Jeffery Hull's article explains it quite well.

[Steven Ott]

Round in those days(as far as I understand) were knockdowns not time periods. So a 100 round fight means guys were on the ground 100 times and as long as a guy would get up the fight continued. So that is a testament to the heart of the fighters, not a lack of the ability to bring down his opponent. Striking into the clinch or as a setup to a shot is done all the time.
I dont know what wrestling finishes were preferred back in the day. It seems to me that knockouts from slams or ground and pound may have been preferred but I don't know. I don't know how much CACC differed from RMA

[Joshua Cook]

Steven, I wasn't talking about the ability to knock an opponent off of his feet. If that was the case, I'd agree with you whole-heartedly. I'm talking about true stopping power, the ability to incapacitate your opponent, to take him completely out of the fight. Few, if any fighters, can accurately predict when they will knockout an opponent. The true knockout (not the TKO's we see in competitions today) is at best a gamble since you can't realistically expect to be able to know when you're going to get the knockout strike. With grappling, on the other hand, you have a little more certainty, albeit things can and likely will not go the way you expected.

That being said, I will reiterate yet again, this thread is not about striking versus grappling. The source material clearly shows that the Renaissance fighting man was primarily a wrestler. What this thread is about is what striking techniques are shown in the source materials, and how to implement them into the larger Ringen system.

And as a side note, it wrestling finishes were not present, then what are all those joint-locks shown in the source materials other than submission techniques from a standing postition?

[Jaron Bernstein]

Steven, I wasn't talking about the ability to knock an opponent off of his feet. If that was the case, I'd agree with you whole-heartedly. I'm talking about true stopping power, the ability to incapacitate your opponent, to take him completely out of the fight. Few, if any fighters, can accurately predict when they will knockout an opponent. The true knockout (not the TKO's we see in competitions today) is at best a gamble since you can't realistically expect to be able to know when you're going to get the knockout strike. With grappling, on the other hand, you have a little more certainty, albeit things can and likely will not go the way you expected.

That being said, I will reiterate yet again, this thread is not about striking versus grappling. The source material clearly shows that the Renaissance fighting man was primarily a wrestler. What this thread is about is what striking techniques are shown in the source materials, and how to implement them into the larger Ringen system.

And as a side note, it wrestling finishes were not present, then what are all those joint-locks shown in the source materials other than submission techniques from a standing postition?

Peter Von Danzig and Gladatoria have plenty of groundwork.

[nathan featherstone]

ringeck also has a good bit although i read that the italians were very unimpressed by the germans tendency to ground fight im guessing it may have been the comparative danger of it but just a guess.

[Joshua Cook]

Ringeck also teaches that it is possible to use the same holds that you do standing while "...lying down." I.E. use the same submissions that you would use on your feet while on the ground if you have to. However, I will echo JC here in stating that you never want to go to ground in a real encounter unless you have no other option. I think this was also the sentiment of the old masters and likely why groundfighting was not a major part of the source material.

[Joshua Eads]

Hey guys,

Recently gotten into studying classical pugilism, and it's more similar to kampfringen and farther removed from modern boxing than most people realize.

You don't see many combinations of more than two or three techniques in the old style for a couple of reasons.

Gloves have already been mentioned, and they changed the game in a number of ways.

Offensively, the gloves take away the need to be more selective in your choice of target so as to not injure your hands, and the gloves, wraps and tape mean it's not quite as important to maintain a proper fist and proper wrist alignment.

Defensively, modern boxers cover up and use the gloves as a shield to stop blows, whereas old pugilists would parry the blow and counter.

....but that said, I don't think it was the mandatory use of gloves that evoked the biggest change.

Instead, it was the prohibition on grappling. In bareknuckle, throws and traps were legal, as was getting someone's head in a headlock and pounding away. Most of the period boxing manuals include instructions for the chancery, the cross-buttock throw and the back-heel, and a few go into many more. So far as I can tell, the techniques are largely drawn from Cornish and Devon wrestling...and as another interesting aside, the Devonshire style also has a nasty arsenal of shin kicks.

We tend to think of a big divide between boxing and wrestling, but there really wasn't a huge gap until the modern era.

I'll link to some manuals if anyone is interested

[Sripol Asanasavest]

You may find some remanance of the old European, not the just Romans, martial arts in other cultures. I'm sure they were trading not just goods, al but also ideas back and forth.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

@Joshua:

If you can post some links on the arts you mentioned it would be greatly appreciated.

[Nicholas Moore]

@Joshua:

If you can post some links on the arts you mentioned it would be greatly appreciated.

Agreed, I'd like to see some of those manuals.

[Joshua Eads]

Parkyns treatise on Cornish Wrestling from 1713 has a section at the end on boxing...specifically the wrestling techniques that can be applied, including a choke, neck crank and arm wrench.
http://neohemas.wordpress.com/library/t ... y-baronet/

Price, 1867
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24487743/The- ... Price-1867

Sullivan 1898
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3301078/Boxin ... s-Sullivan

Walker 1840
http://books.google.com/books?id=u98DAA ... 40&f=false

Kirk Lawson has republished dozens of others here...and the pdf's are free.http://www.lulu.com/browse/search.php?s ... Search.y=8

I also have Kirk's book "Banned from Boxing" and it's a great addition to anyone's WMA library.

David Lindholm's book is also a good intro to the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Bare-Knuckle-Boxe ... t_ep_dpi_1

Apologies for taking so long. I moved house and was without a connection for a while.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

@Joshua:

Very interesting and informative links there, thanks!

[Nicholas Moore]

Wonderful, Thanks Joshua