Is Savate's Grand Baton Derived From The Two-Handed Sword

[kenneth house]

Greetings,

After looking at Savate's Grand Baton, I was wondering if it derives in some way from European Two-Handed Sword techniques? I viewed John Clemens performing a beautiful routine with a long two-handed sword years ago on the older site, and was struck by, at least IMO, that there were some similarities. Some of the windmills in Grand Baton (though risky in combat and, perhaps, more constructive as exercise) seem like they were at one time possibly a part of the two-handed sword tradition, and some of the parries seem to be similar to parries I've seen in, I believe, Gallos article in Journal of Asian MAs, some time ago, on European Medieval swordplay from Germany (if memory serves me correctly)...

Minus some of the more liberal use of gymnastic agility found in Grand Baton, there seems to me to be a common combative origin between the two...

KH

[Allen Johnson]

If its a true martial art, people are going to find the most effective way to move and use the weapon. If two different weapons share some similar qualities such as legnth, weight or the manner in which they are held, there are going to be some common tactics. The human body can only move so many ways.

And then there is just some inherent fighting skills that are effective no matter what the weapon is ...if any. So it dosent suprise me that there might be some similarities. It dosent specifically mean that one spawned the other. It just means some of its maximum efficient moves happen to coincide.

[rogerx]

Savate's Grand Baton nice to watch.

[Roger Norling]

I can't really speak for Grand Baton, but I do believe that it is the case with Portuguese JdP, so it wouldn't surprise me. However, I also believe that JdP at some stage stepped away from being closely tied to sword training to stand in its own right as proper staff fighting. How this process happened is still, from what I understand, unclear. Also, if the staff was used as a waster by swordsmen or if the techniques were borrowed from the sword and applied and adapted to the staff by "commoners" is an interesting question. Those are two completely different things. And they may even have existed side-by-side.

I am writing an article partly on this topic that will be published eventually.

[steve hick]

I can't really speak for Grand Baton, but I do believe that it is the case with Portuguese JdP, so it wouldn't surprise me. However, I also believe that JdP at some stage stepped away from being closely tied to sword training to stand in its own right as proper staff fighting. How this process happened is still, from what I understand, unclear. Also, if the staff was used as a waster by swordsmen or if the techniques were borrowed from the sword and applied and adapted to the staff by "commoners" is an interesting question. Those are two completely different things. And they may even have existed side-by-side.

I am writing an article partly on this topic that will be published eventually.

Hi Roger, just interested in how you can definitively say this about JdP, I think this could be true, but the dots are not all there. Apparently someone wrote a history of JdP (Rui Simoes) as part of his graduate work, but I've not been able to obtain a copy, and it only goes back to the 17th century. Now there are hallmarks that make the case attractive, but form does follow function sometimes. Not being negative and confrontational, just looking for more data points.

Steve

[Roger Norling]

Hi Steve!
Well, I can't definitely say this. That is why I said I "believe".

I am looking at many different sources right now, including Alfieri, diGrassi, Mair and more in depth with Joachim Meyer's staff and Jogo do Pau. I have a strong suspicion that there are things that connect all these and will expand on that at a later time. Suffice to say that Meyer's staff work is often remarkably similar to JdP.

The literature on JdP is scarce, as you point out, but Luis Preto is pretty convinced that JdP is based on sword fencing. I am not as convinced as he appears to be as to how it is related, but I do think it is, in one way or the other.

S0, unfortunately, at this time I have no more data points to offer. I hope to be able to do that at a later time, though.

But, here is a link that might lead to other interesting material.

http://liceu-aristotelico.blogspot.com/2010/05/esgrima-lusitana-ii.html

[steve hick]

Hi Steve!
Well, I can't definitely say this. That is why I said I "believe".

I am looking at many different sources right now, including Alfieri, diGrassi, Mair and more in depth with Joachim Meyer's staff and Jogo do Pau. I have a strong suspicion that there are things that connect all these and will expand on that at a later time. Suffice to say that Meyer's staff work is often remarkably similar to JdP.

The literature on JdP is scarce, as you point out, but Luis Preto is pretty convinced that JdP is based on sword fencing. I am not as convinced as he appears to be as to how it is related, but I do think it is, in one way or the other.

S0, unfortunately, at this time I have no more data points to offer. I hope to be able to do that at a later time, though.

But, here is a link that might lead to other interesting material.

http://liceu-aristotelico.blogspot.com/2010/05/esgrima-lusitana-ii.html

Yeah, and I wish Luis could give us more of the old Jogo de Norte, the old style from the area from whence JdP comes. He's got some older books from the 40s and 50s, and his teacher Nuno Russo, did a lot of travel and training (and fighting) with the old guys in that area. The Rui Simoes referenced in Mestre Nuno's paper is the same guy, his dissertation is supposedly where it is all recorded -- including some legal material about rights and privileges about wielding the stick, its dimensions, and who could carry them. (17th c or 18th c, reference was not quite clear).

There is some "interesting stuff" in a video that Matt Galas referred to me, Juego del Palo, that also has some hallmarks. JdP, especially JdN, has the multidirectional, multiopponent plays reminiscent of montante.

Over and out.

PS Yeah, make sure I get a copy of the paper, and try finding the dissertation, BNP has it in the Union Catalog for all of Portugal, but getting it was too tough for me at the time (let me tell you about dealing with facsimiles from Portuguese institutions some time and getting the run around from the BNP and Torre de Tombo National Archives)....

[Roger Norling]

I'll have a talk to Luis and see if I can persuade him into giving us some more on the old JdP. I am also very intereted in this topic...

Btw, you are quite welcome to register on the Hroarr polearms board. There is a pretty good collection of polearms clips there, including all JdP clips I have found, and a few of Juego del Palo / Juego del Canaria.

[Stacy Clifford]

Roger,

You might want to look up some of the other JdP threads on here if you're not already familiar with them. I've done work on staff from Meyer, Swetnam and Silver and have had several discussions on similarities and differences with JdP here. I agree Meyer has quite a bit of similarity, but not entirely. I'd be interested to hear your input on that as well, as I'm sure would Frederico Martins.

[Roger Norling]

Thanks for the tips, Stacy!

Actually, I have read several of them, and we do practice JdP with online assistance and workshops at events by Luis, albeit irregularly right now, since we have focused on Meyer staff for the last six months or so.

Of course, Meyer and JdP do not overlap exactly, but there is a surprising amount of similarities, including the JdP tornado, that Meyer uses two times. And with longer JdP staffs, as they originally were, the thrusts were more important, which makes them even closer to each other.

I will expand on this at a later time, since I have started on an article on the topic.

And Frederico and I know each other quite well already.

[Frederico Martins]

Yep, I have been talking about that here and in other forums, with the help of Roger too:)

as said, I don’t believe it is possible to “prove” with written documents a direct connection, and as Roger said, with time the practice was surely adapted to the characteristics of the staff.

in what it differs more is on the one on one specific techniques due to the differences in the weapons, but due to the simpler nature of the staff, the techniques we use can be directly applied to the sword.

on the other hand, the jogo do norte that Steve mentioned (that basically is the multiple opponents technique that I believe Luis is teaching allot in his classes) in that technique, the specific characteristics of the weapons are not so relevant, since the predominat aspect is how you manage distance and the optimal way to use the staff there is the same as the sword.

It was nice to find the Rules of the montante that steve mentions too, with multiple opponents techniques in them, that surely demonstrate that kind of practice is not only characteristic of the more rude people that practice the staff, but was also a practice valued by the nobleman with the long swords.

I don’t know much about the french baton but II would love to see more on other staff systems too.