Flowcharts of Longsword

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

User avatar
Philip Sibbering
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:46 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Flowcharts of Longsword

Postby Philip Sibbering » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:22 am

Are the any ARMA flowcharts of longsword combat techniques?

Opening stances, strikes from those stances, followed by counters, and counter-counters etc. all wrapped up in an easy to follow flowchart?

Philip

User avatar
Stacy Clifford
Posts: 1126
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 11:51 am
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Postby Stacy Clifford » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:44 pm

Sorry, no, there aren't any flowcharts, and even if there were, they sure wouldn't be easy to follow. Waaaaay too many possibilities... If you want to try and make some though, we'll be happy to offer feedback.
0==[>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Stacy Clifford
Free-Scholar
ARMA Houston, TX

User avatar
Philip Sibbering
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:46 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Postby Philip Sibbering » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:49 am

I may try and string together the plates of Hans Talhoffer's Fight Earnestly. Some of them seem to link together. Or try to condense the concepts.

I had a PM about a book: 'Fighting with the German Longsword' (by Christian Tobler) which apparently has flowcharts in it.

Anyone know of any other books out there?

Thanks for your offer of feedback Stacy.

Philip

User avatar
John Farthing
Posts: 179
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:09 pm
Location: ARMA Middle Tennessee
Contact:

Postby John Farthing » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:40 pm

The Tobler book does indeed contain flowcharts. I believe that James Roberts in Johannesburg has worked out flowcharts for several of the 'Stueke' (techniques or devices) from Joachim Meyer's 1570/1600 editions. You may be able to find them online.

Best of luck in your search! Kindly keep us posted on your findings. I would love to see your completed Talhoffer charts if you feel inclined to post/share them upon completion.
-John Farthing, Free Scholar
ARMA Deputy Director

User avatar
J. Scott Steflik
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:51 pm
Location: Central Connecticut

Postby J. Scott Steflik » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:53 pm

Hmm, I thought I replied to this last night, must be the kids and lack of sleep are finally getting to me! Smile

The Wiktenauer now has the Meyer longsword translation up (and tons of other manuals)

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Joachim_Meyer/Longsword

Meyer's devices/sequences are great fun, most are easy to follow, and flow really nicely. It's easy to write up simple flowcharts from them, either as solo drills or paired

Andrew F Ulrich
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:34 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Postby Andrew F Ulrich » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:57 pm

Doesn't George Silver have some flowcharts at the back of his Brief Instructions book?

See below:
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/S ... &plate=135

User avatar
Keith Culbertson
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Columbus OH

Postby Keith Culbertson » Thu May 12, 2011 9:43 am

maybe I am missing something, but this seems way too much like planning a set series of movements---why not simply practice transitions from any position to any other at random until everything is comfortable?
Keith, SA

User avatar
Randall Pleasant
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:35 pm
Location: Flower Mound, Texas, USA

Postby Randall Pleasant » Thu May 12, 2011 10:00 am

Philip Sibbering wrote:I had a PM about a book: 'Fighting with the German Longsword' (by Christian Tobler) which apparently has flowcharts in it.

Philip

Tobler's book does show the flow of Ringeck's longsword plays. You must keep in mind that the only purpose of the plays was to teach techinques. The plays are not the steps to be followed by the numbers during a fight. I have made almost no use of Tobler's Longsword book. On the other hand I have made great use of the translation in Tobler's Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship book. Plays teach us but fighting is not a set of plays.
Ran Pleasant

User avatar
Philip Sibbering
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:46 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Postby Philip Sibbering » Mon May 16, 2011 5:27 am

Thanks all for the feedback.

To clarify: a do not want a flow chart of combat, I want a flow chart of moves and counter moves.

My first plan to tackle this is to break this down in component parts, starting with basic 'full commitment' strikes and counters. For example a hewing strike from the roof countered by a a straight thrust to the face from the plough. The advantage, if done right, is with the straight trust to the face. To me this suggests the beginning of a flow chart, even if very short at two moves.

Later, once all the direct attacks are covered, I plan to delve into feints, deception, and timing - building upon the basics I would have already written up.

Using the previous example, I know that a straight thrust to the face from the plough, against a man is the roof stance, is not going to work as they can step back and attack the incoming sword. That would be covered in the basics. A person can use this knowledge to threaten a man in the plough stance with a strike from the roof but not follow through, and instead step back when the man in the plough takes the bait.

It may, I hope, make it easier to explain the complex combat by first showing a map of all possible options, and how a skilled fighter plays with those options.

With each level of depth I hope to show that defense is the hard bit, but it gives you the edge at higher skill levels. Low skill is all about aggression and getting stuck in, because the chance of a skilled counter is low. At high skill it's all about managing your opponent, because the chance of a skilled counter is high. A highly skilled combatant wants to be the one to force a commitment they can manage, and pull of the counter.

Well, that's how I'm understanding it all at the moment, and it seems there is a lot of information to juggle. I greatly appreciate your help and insights.

Philip

User avatar
Richard Strey
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:59 am
Location: Cologne, Germany

Postby Richard Strey » Sat May 21, 2011 8:48 am

Part of that is in the books. Check, for example, Peter von Danzig's writings on the Zornhau-Ort Complex. Other than that, from my experience, the charts you want to draw up are a great learing tool - for the student drawing them! By writing the stuff down, you are foreced to think things through and thus gain a deeper understanding. But they will either be too lacking or too complex to be much use for anyone else who wants to just "consume" instead of "participating" in that project.

The variables that make up a single combat situation are far too many to be put down in writing, which actually is one of the main reasons for heated forum debates. :wink:

Robin Milford
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:36 am
Location: Dhaka

Postby Robin Milford » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:55 am

Hey you can check this. It a great page containing great images of Major Timothy Sheetz, Jacob Norwood etc.

http://www.thearma.org/photos/Gathering03/prizing.htm


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.