Intro Level Steel and Wasters (Longswords)...

[T.J. Young]

I've read through the forums and there's frankly a LOT of mixed statements. I think it's absolutely clear from everything I read here and elsewhere that the Albion swords are the absolute best for all purposes. But when it comes to the more... *ahem*... affordable is where I'm now confused.

In the past I've purchased off of KultofAthena and have a number of Katanas, "medieval", fantasy, and a Roman Pompeii waster. In the past it's been about what was cheap and neat looking for my purpose (display only).

So now my question is... where do we stand for affordable steel and wasters? The purpose is not to cut but to train. So they'll need to be historically accurate (for the most part) and well balanced/built. If preferable I'd like a blunt and sharp matching version (if they're quality).

My budget right now is $500 give or take. I'm needing two for sparring purposes (either two steel, synthetic, or wood). Eventually I'll certainly be buying an Albion if not two... but that's going to be very long term (as in perhaps next tax season).

I've been eyeing all of the different manufacturers... and on this site the reviews/opinions of Han Wei, Tinkers (HW), and Cold Steel are very mixed. I see posts to stay away, but then others that say they're ok for starting out or mid level. I've been on other forums and see the same about them, Windlass, etc. They're all mixed.

So, is there a definitive or safe bet thought process on this? I've checked locally and there's only one group that's part of HEMA. I'm in the process of contacting them with training and supply questions too. But I figured I could make a start now if that doesn't pan out. Seems like we're very limited here with options (in CO).

Thanks guys. I know this is a wall of text... I know the questions have been asked before. One thread the opinion goes one way and in another they go another way. :\ Makes it hard for us who have shallow pockets/wallets (I'd love to just buy up 2 blunts from Albion).

[Roger Norling]

Considering your funds: If you want swords for sparring that behave reasonably alike to a sharp, but still are "safe" in thrusting, then I would suggest looking at the federschwert of Polish bad ass fencer and swordsmith Jan Chodkiewicz

http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/

or

a federschwert by Hungarian Peter Regenyei.

http://www.regenyei.sg18.net/en/en_index.htm

The quality, characteristics and price all combine into a really good sword. I'll be putting up reviews here eventually: http://www.hroarr.com/articles/index.php

Not sure how the customs or shipping costs affect the price, but do check these out. They are definitely better for your purpose than those you mentioned, apart from possibly the Albions. At least in my opinion.

[Stacy Clifford]

Keep in mind that you may be reading reviews of weapons from a particular maker that span a significant time period during which their quality evolved. Somebody who bought a Hanwei five years ago or three years ago might not have the same quality piece as one produced last year or this year. The martial artist market for these things has only recently grown big enough for a lot of makers to pay more attention to feedback and quality instead of how cool it looks on the wall, so things are changing. Some makers are slowly getting better and some are getting worse as they focus on different kinds of buyers. In my opinion, the most recent Hanwei products I've seen are good buys for the money at the cheap end. They're not beautiful, but they're good enough for you to learn the art in an accurate way without breaking your budget, and durable enough (mostly) to get your money's worth out of them. If you have to modify one a little bit, that's just the price of getting it cheap. I'll let others comment on makers they have more experience with than I do, but if you find yourself with more money, get an Albion, or consider Lutel (love mine).

[Roger Norling]

Just a small note regarding the Hanwei federschwert. Both the Gen 1 and Gen 2 have had a clear tendency to break in the last three inches, leaving a very sharp point that can kill your opponent. For some groups 3 out of 4 have broken during the first 20 sparring sessions.

However, after having sent numerous emails with reports of breakages, it appears as if they have made minor adjustments which make them more durable, so they may be fine now.

Also, the previous problems more seem to be related to uneven quality control than bad design, since the breakages showed uneven grain in the metal.

So, I am not putting them down, but make sure you get a very new one and not something that has been stored for some time.

[T.J. Young]

Considering your funds: If you want swords for sparring that behave reasonably alike to a sharp, but still are "safe" in thrusting, then I would suggest looking at the federschwert of Polish bad ass fencer and swordsmith Jan Chodkiewicz

http://ensifer.carbonmade.com/

or

a federschwert by Hungarian Peter Regenyei.

http://www.regenyei.sg18.net/en/en_index.htm

Those do look nice... but unless they're carried by a U.S. retailer I imagine the cost would be VERY high. Everything I've gotten, have been through U.S. retailers... for very good reason. Let me know if you know of anyone selling them.

Keep in mind that you may be reading reviews of weapons from a particular maker that span a significant time period during which their quality evolved. Somebody who bought a Hanwei five years ago or three years ago might not have the same quality piece as one produced last year or this year. The martial artist market for these things has only recently grown big enough for a lot of makers to pay more attention to feedback and quality instead of how cool it looks on the wall, so things are changing. Some makers are slowly getting better and some are getting worse as they focus on different kinds of buyers. In my opinion, the most recent Hanwei products I've seen are good buys for the money at the cheap end. They're not beautiful, but they're good enough for you to learn the art in an accurate way without breaking your budget, and durable enough (mostly) to get your money's worth out of them. If you have to modify one a little bit, that's just the price of getting it cheap. I'll let others comment on makers they have more experience with than I do, but if you find yourself with more money, get an Albion, or consider Lutel (love mine).

Good point. Most of what I'm reading, even on these forums are in the last 3 years. But that doesn't mean they're not old equipment just purchased three years ago. Just like Roger says below, it could be old stock.

Just a small note regarding the Hanwei federschwert. Both the Gen 1 and Gen 2 have had a clear tendency to break in the last three inches, leaving a very sharp point that can kill your opponent. For some groups 3 out of 4 have broken during the first 20 sparring sessions.

However, after having sent numerous emails with reports of breakages, it appears as if they have made minor adjustments which make them more durable, so they may be fine now.

Also, the previous problems more seem to be related to uneven quality control than bad design, since the breakages showed uneven grain in the metal.

So, I am not putting them down, but make sure you get a very new one and not something that has been stored for some time.

Just watched a review on the Hanwei and the newer model was praised by the reviewer. Here is the video:

http://youtu.be/2ad7les38fw

But then there's another site claiming even the newer generation is breaking too:

http://www.wmacoalition.com/forum/viewt ... ?f=9&t=657

So of course that's rather mixed and hard to determine what's the best option.

Now overall for training purposes... the Federschwert are the best option? Just getting into this art and knowing very little other than what I read here on the forums and the resources posted on the site... so you have to bear with me. One would think that the way they handle (based on construction) is vastly different than an actual longsword. Am I wrong thinking that?

[Stacy Clifford]

Now overall for training purposes... the Federschwert are the best option?

It depends on what you believe about the best training tools (and how you define "federschwert"). Looking at that video, I can tell you nobody in ARMA wants to use anything with that much flex in the blade because we think it distorts technique and gives you a false sense of safety. We want our blunts to be no more flexible than our sharps, and we put the burden of safety on our skill more than our weapons. Other groups disagree, believing more flexible weapons allow you to go at it harder without compromising safety. You've got to evaluate and decide which group you fall into and go from there.

As for the definition of federschwert, you can easily find a dozen different training swords that all have the same basic outline referred to by that name, and every one of them will have different levels of stiffness. We prefer the Albion Meyer because it meets our standards, and most of the rest don't. Regular blunts can work just fine, however, it doesn't have to be a federschwert to train with. I've used a blunt Lutel longsword for training and sparring for years with great satisfaction, and others in my group have various Hanweis that perform just fine.

[Roger Norling]

Those do look nice... but unless they're carried by a U.S. retailer I imagine the cost would be VERY high. Everything I've gotten, have been through U.S. retailers... for very good reason. Let me know if you know of anyone selling them.
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Now overall for training purposes... the Federschwert are the best option? Just getting into this art and knowing very little other than what I read here on the forums and the resources posted on the site... so you have to bear with me. One would think that the way they handle (based on construction) is vastly different than an actual longsword. Am I wrong thinking that?

Nope, they are not carried by US retailers, since you order them straight from the swordsmiths without any costs added for the middle-hand. Buying them through a retailer would include a lower "national" shipping but some amount of money to the retailer for his import costs and some amount of money for his gain, and in the end there might not be much of a difference. I still advise you to ask them what it would cost.

The price for Regenyei's feders are about 160-175€ not including shipping or customs. The Ensifer feders are a little bit more expensive, but not much. I bought mine a couple of years ago for 160€.
This puts you a little bit above your budget, but I think it is well worth saving a little extra to get really good sparring swords.

A "federschwert", as they are today called, can be designed in many different ways, just as Stacy described. Some have a lot of flex, like the Hanweis, which make them a bit safer in thrusting. Some have very little, like some of the Ensifers.

The good thing about most of them, is that the balance and handling is often quite similar to sharp swords, despite having thick edges. And they have been used as far back as the early 15th century. In fact, there may even have been sharp swords of this design.

Regarding the Hanweis and the link you posted. As you can see that is one of the threads where I have collected reports of breakages.

In my opinion, the flex in the new version is quite alright and do not hinder techniques much more than the Albion Meyer does. It is only the last third which has more flex. At the cross, the blade is almost half an inch thick and 2/3 is more than 1/10 of an inch thick. The last third though, has considerably more flex than a Meyer, and it can affect the handling a small bit. But given that it costs so much less, then it might be worth it still. As long as it holds up in hard sparring as well.

And from what I understand, the characteristics are quite similar to the three originals in the Landesmuseum in Zürich. The design is pretty much identical, although I can imagine that the craftmanship can be a bit different.

[T.J. Young]

So what are the thoughts on the "best" waster? What material, a specific retailer that's recommended, what size, etc? They would be used for sparring (light) and form work. Any ideas?

[Stacy Clifford]

We mostly prefer hickory wasters for their durability. New Stirling Arms tends to get most of our business as all of their longsword models handle well, but a lot of folks like Raven Studios as well (you can find links to both on our Links page). Hollow Earth Swordworks has some good models and some bad, but they're more hit or miss and you would be advised to handle them in person at a Renaissance festival (where they spend most of their time) before buying one. Size is up to you depending on your height and build and what feels comfortable. We use wasters for all forms of drilling and sparring alongside blunt steel (and I'm not so sure I'd call the sparring we do with them "light").