Shane Smith's XIIIa's Damaged Edge

[Guest]

I appreciate the thought behind not making this public, but, I kinda feel that a sword fabricator should be able to discuss failures, as well as successes publicly....

For those unaware, Shane used his personal AT XIIIa test cutting a helmet during the first ARMA International Gathering.

The edge failed.

Of the three cuts Shane performed, the first left the edge undamaged. The second, rolled the edge where the contact was made. The third chipped off the edge where the contact was made. In fact, at the third point, the damage to the edge was such, that part of the edge could be flaked off with a fingernail.

I haven't seen the sword yet, Shane shipped it to me earlier today, it should take maybe a week to cross the continent.

The problem with the edge.... hmm. where to start.......

Well, for that heavy a sword, that is intended to be a 21st century look at a 14th century sword, the edge was way to thin. This sword was designed from the ground up to be a cutting sword, and frankly I didn't take into account that someone might want to smack a helmet on a pole with it.... *g*

Its also about 1.5 years old, one of the first swords I made with the "fine edges" that I've made a name for myself.

Realistically, if I'd have done this right with what I know now, the edge would have started approx .03 inch {.75mm} thick, and I would have ground and polished the edge from there.

The reality of the situation is that the main bevels touched when I was grinding the main bevels. And I very lightly put a secondary bevel on it. This sword's edges were prime for mat cutting, very puir for helmet striking........

This edge is appropriate for a light sword meant for "civil", or unarmored combat. It is not appropriate for an edge where a sword might contact plate armor.....

The main problem with Shane's sword, is that it is too early in my learning curve.

In the last year and a half, some five hundred swords, I've had two other edges fail. Both of the others were light bastard swords, where I feel the edges were appropriate for the intended use, the swords were abused. The edges however rolled, they did not chip out.....

Well frankly, striking a helmet on a pole {please someone correct me if this isn't what was done} could be considered abuse, in this instance. But on the other hand, a XIIIa warsword should be expected to contact some armor, even if accidentally. In otherwords, Shane's sword really shouldn't have had the edge fail the way they did.... but they did. The edges were to thin.

Starting about three months ago I started making "thicker edges" because of the influence of a couple sword smiths. I have since learned to form an edge that will stand up to more abuse, and still cut the way I feel a real sword should cut. That learning curve stuff.

From the verbal discription, I feel I can repair Shane's blade. I won't know for sure however, until I see it.

In the meantime, Shane as graciously volunteered to test a couple of pieces I have here. I have one sword here with edges like I do today, and Shane as graciously agreed to test it on some armor, and let me know how things turn out. He's also going to do some handling and cutting with a couple other swords I'm sending him.......

Gary Grzbek also has volunteered to assist me in improving my art..... so three swords will be headed his way soon also.

Angus Trim

[Guest]

Angus,

Thanks for posting here. I'm glad to hear that you are taking feedback from your customers in order to improve your designs. Certainly this was the case in period as well, as warriors provided feedback from the battlefield and duels on what worked well and what didn't. Obviously, the edges of swords were never meant to cleave plate armour. It is reasonable to assume, however, that swords would often strike armour in combat whether intentionally or inadvertently. The "torture testing" we subjected weapons to at the International Gathering was brutal indeed and all the swords showed some damage as a result, two actually broke at the tang. Shane's sword however was the only one that failed in that particular way. As you said, the edge could be flaked away with a fingernail along about a 1 1/2 " section. I felt bad for Shane, but it was a very interesting experiment. I have cut with the sword in question and it is indeed a fine cutter of targets such as pool noodles, cardborad tubes, etc. In fact, even after the edge damage, it cut grass mats easily. As you pointed out, although the edge on this particular sword was optimized for cutting, it would probably not have had such a thin edge in period as it makes it too fragile. Anyway, thanks for your post and your interest in improving your product.

[Webmaster]

As I recall, the helmet was stuffed with the remains of grass mats before setting it over the pole to hold it in place. Since the pole no doubt puts up greater resistance than someone's head by not falling down when struck, I believe this was done to at least partially counteract that problem. Since nobody volunteered to wear the thing, it was the next best option available. It was a little hard on the sword, but I don't think it constitutes unreasonable abuse in this case.

I agree with Matt, though, dialogue between makers and users is the best way to improve quality and utility. Thanks for coming on our forum and talking about it.

[Guest]

Thank you Stacy for the correction, and thank you for the welcome.

No volunteers for the helmet wearing portion of it? Darn.... well I wouldn't have volunteered either..

I believe I've read it here that redeveloping a lost art takes a lot of study, and a lot of hard work. That was referring to the lost arts of swordsmanship.

Well, trying to come up with decent swords, that would handle and perform like antiques would when new takes a lot of study and work too. And the task is just as daunting, because antiques are not universally available, and there's no guarantee that the antique you see was a quality sword when new.....

It was nearly two years ago while participating in a Bob Charron seminar that it finally sunk in that I really, Really needed to work with folks that new what they were about, to come up with better tools. I already had been making decent swords for the part time cutting, collector. But for the serious martial artist, particularly for Longsword, I still had a ways to go....... And my Tai Chi background, was just the wrong background for late 14th cent Italian Longsword.

Its the same with edge geometry as it is for everything else. There's no university to go to, to learn what one needs to know to make excellent tools for the WMA. Working with knowledgeable people, and the School of Hard Knocks winds up being the best places to learn this.....

Considering the recent past, I'm quite grateful for Shane's and Gary's willingness to work with me. And I'm quite grateful for the welcome.......

Angus Trim

[Shane Smith]

I should start by pointing out that while I did take part in the cutting at the event,John was actually wielding my Atrim when the edge was damaged(I can't take credit for that one <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) As for the edge damage,well it was definitely more extensive than that seen on most other blades tested. I have cut with this sword on many occasions and have found it to be a tremendous cutter on all targets up to and including 5/16" walled 6" diameter cardboard shipping tubes.I'm certain the apparently over-thin edge is why this blade out-performed all others I have tested for myself as well as any I have seen tested on these lighter target media,yet that same razor-sharp edge is undoubtedly why it failed on heavier targets...I'm thinking insufficient edge-support is the culprit.

[Guest]

The lack of support right behind the edge is definitly the reason the edge failed. Even though I haven't seen the damage yet, I'm sure it should have had "more meat" right behind the edge.

The thing is that a sword like this will still cut real well, if the edge is a bit thicker, then done with a 35 to 40 degree secondary [blended in to approach true appleseed shape}. The mass of the blade would still keep this sword a very good cutter.

However, I didn't know this a year and a half ago.

Anyways, until you "play" with the other swords, and get the opportunity to try out the repaired XIIIa, lets just chalk this up to my opinion. Lets, let the testing do the real talking...

[John_Clements]

I’ll take credit for this. After playing with or testing about a dozen swords that day alongside and in front of many attendees, this sword performed dramatically poor against a hard target. It was otherwise robust and cut mats very well, even after the damage, but its edge failed dismally. The edge was literally obliterated several milimeters deep while the helm showed not even a noticeable scratch, all from a horizontal cut –certainly not the strongest of known blows. In all my years of cutting I have never seen such a result on an edge while cuitting at armor or any other material. Pieces of it were visible to the naked eye of everyone present as twisted shards. I broke two other swords at the tang on the same helmet target (without edge damage), and dented the helm twice with two other makes of sword, and actually cut the rim with another that same day during the same incident. Other people also dented the helm with their swords without major problems. So, the test was fair, reasonable for the sword form, and far from any form of “abuse.”

Though this sword cut very well on the mats, the Angel Swords actually cut them better in my opinion (take the three mats cut through simultaneously with a single-hand horizontal blow as evidence of that –one of which afterward struck a quarter-inch iron nail with only slight nicking to its edge). Also, a blunt Raven bastard sword –entirely unsharpened –cut through a double mat as well as dented the same target helm without any effect to its edge. So, relatively speaking, the sword in question’s performance was inadequate for that type of historical weapon, evidentally a result of too thin or too delicate an edge.

As Peter Johnsson --a swordsmith --comments on this test result: “The question of sharpness is always one of the most critical…fearsome shearing/cleaving blows can be made with a semi sharp or even blunt weapon….What varies is the geometry behind the very sharpness…On war swords from earlier periods the blades are usually a bit more substantial…The cutting section will typically vary between 3.5 to 1.5 mm in the weak of the blade. …Again, it is the shaping of the very last 5 mm towards the edge that makes the difference between an edge that folds, breaks away or gets dull quickly.” He concludes: “A helmet or a steel drum might then give you an idea of what kind of punishment the sword will take before it fails… When banged into armour the edge will naturally need re-sharpening after that battle, but damage should as a rule be limited to nicks and foldings that are small enough to remove with minor honing and grinding.” Which was clearly not the case here.

Dan Maragni --another swordsmith (and one who attended the event) --adds on this same incident: “I am also in complete agreement with Peter about cutting into steel as a viable test for a ‘battle ready’ blade. Obviously in battle you are not always going to be able to select only targets which are compatible with your sword edge, weapons should be designed for the worse case scenario (if there are men wearing iron hats on the battle field you had better have a sword that can handle them)…I have duplicated this with my reconstructions [shown at this same event] which I cut, and I had exactly the same experience as Peter, it wasn't until I was able to dig the edge into a corner of [an iron] bar at an angle that the sword blade and edge started to show damage. Both the evidence of [one] original Norman sword and the evidence of my tests of the reconstructions [of it] show that with the proper material and heat treatment and the proper blade/edge geometry you can have a sword that will cut both soft and hard targets quite well and survive. I also did tests using different edge configurations with the same blade geometry on different targets and with a very subtle change in my edge shape I can "optimize" the edge for either hard or soft targets (I even used the same blade for hard and soft targets changing the edge shape between tests).”

Paul Champaign -- one other swordsmith --also contributes on this incident that: “A blade does not have to be 'razor' sharp to be battle worthy…You can have an edge that will work well in soft and hard cutting.” Paul further suggests, “A thin, razor edge is fine on a soft target but will not hold up on a hard target or a poor strike. A 'hard target' geometry will work well when cutting hard and will put down a soft target (man) just fine.” He continues to remark, “Hard target destructive testing is essential as I have stated so many times before. You test designs to their limits, not to an arbitrarily safe point. You need to know the boundaries. It’s still that way today. What we have to be careful of today...”

So, as pointed out previously, we have been saying in public for years that skilled swordsman testing on historically realistic targets is the only way for makers to improve their historical designs –this is a view which, until very recently, caused ridicule and hostility toward us from some sword manufacturers promoting their products --which did not approximate the mass and edges of historical orginals.
Seeing evidence that this attitude has sincerely changed for the genuine will be welcome.

JC

[Guest]

Hi John

I'm not entirely sure I understand all the point, but it doesn't matter. One thing you and I agree on is the edge shouldn't have failed like that.

If the edge damage is bad enough that I can't repair it, and stay within parameters I set for that sword model, I'm going to replace the blade. I've already started one on the chance that the edge area would have to be pulled back to far to still be a good cutter by my standards.

Thank you for the description and the photo, as it gives me more to mull over until the sword gets here.......

Angus Trim

[Patrick Kelly]

I think this incident is an excellent example of the need to keep an open mind, and never assume that we've got things figured out. Everytime we get comfortable with our view point life tends to show us that things are a lot more complex than we assumed.

Until recently, within the last year or two, Gus' swords were used mainly by the plywood/matt cutting crowd. The swords weren't used much in historic experimentation, in the cutting of hard targets like this. Consequently they have been designed with this as a priority. Having seen some of Gus' newer swords I'm familiar with the edge geometery. Frankly, it doesn't suprise me that the edge failed in this way. To be fair though, anyone with any real experience in experimenting with targets of this type should have known that this would be the result.

I believe that an excellent example of purpose designed swords can be found in the Japanese arts. Toyama-ryu practioners quite often use katana with a very broad, flat blade that is especially designed for wara cutting. The wouldn't stand up well in actual combat, but they're not designed to. They're designed with one purpose in mind, and they do it very well.

All parties involved should chalk this up as a learning experience in choosing, and making, the right tool for the job at hand.

[Patrick Hardin]

"All parties involved should chalk this up as a learning experience in choosing, and making, the right tool for the job at hand."

Amen to that. I cut on the helmet too, with an arming sword that I hilted and sharpened myself. The blade was a thick MRL throw-away. It couldn't cut the straw mats, but It can cut bamboo. I and Jacob Norwood, if I remember rightly, both put really good dents in the helmet with it. There wasn't a nick or scratch to be found on the blade after both cuts. I guess it can be classified as a 'hard target' sword.

What I learned from this is what everybody has been saying for a while: different edges on different tools for different purposes. This sword would serve in a pinch for civilian defense, though I'm not sure it would cut clothing. But it would also be good as a sword used in war against other mounted knights, since it is, after all, an arming sword. And this is all due to its edge geometry. It was a cool experience for me, and it gives me occasion to brag on my swords. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Patrick Hardin

[John_Clements]

"To be fair though, anyone with any real experience in experimenting with targets of this type should have known that this would be the result."

*****
That statement makes little sense and seems illogical. Swords are not advertised as exclusively "box cutters" or "plywood cutters", and this particular brand is no exception. Anyone testing a supposed "historical reproduction" sword (especially those sold with edges) is warranted is doing so against reasonably realistic targets. This was done on this day just as it had been many times before using a wide range of sword makes and blade styles achieving a range of results. Until you test a blade you can't tell what it's really capable of ---this is why we call it testing. Otherwise, weapons sit on the wall and get hyped by someone who doesn't actually try to use them. And what do any of us learn from that?

JC

[TimSheetz]

A sword can be made with a strong blade to resist damage and a very good cutting edge that is downright scary on soft targets.

To make one like that is the hard part.

Tim Sheetz

[Shane Smith]

Patrick Kelly wrote"All parties involved should chalk this up as a learning experience in choosing, and making, the right tool for the job at hand. "...

Hi Patrick,I think I know where you're coming from but I would maintain that a war sword IS the right tool for taking an occasional incidental hit on armor,at least as far as any sword could be said to be such an implement.Several one-handers held up well as I recall and if anything, war-swords of any make SHOULD exceed the performance of lesser weapons on more heavily armoured targets.That was, after all, a large historical impetus in the development of great swords and long swords if all I've read is to be believed.

[Guest]

Actually John, Patrick's statement makes perfect sense if you understand that he's baiting, trying to draw you and me into a fight. He's trying to draw me into a defensive posture, drawing you out stating your position, then I respond hotly, and away we go again.......

The "some" swords he's seen is actually two. Two swords I sent him to look at to prove my aesthetics have improved. Had nothing to do with cutting performance, and he didn't cut anything with them, light targets or hard. The swords were made last July and do not incorporate the improvements I've made over the last three months.

[Guest]

Hi Tim

"A sword can be made with a strong blade to resist damage and a very good cutting edge that is downright scary on soft targets.

To make one like that is the hard part."

And that's the rub isn't it? The first swords of mine you saw had such thick edges that they would do fine against something like that helmet. But they didn't do all that well against your chosen targets two years ago did they?

Now of course, cutting isn't the problem.....

If I understand Shane correctly {please correct me again if I'm wrong}, John's first blow resulted in no damage to the edge. Then the reverse edge was used, and that edge had all of the spectacular damage.

I need to see that sword, but that tells me that one edge was ok, and the other was "too fine". In fact I was telling Shane, that the description of the last strike, sounded like a "burr" breaking off. An edge that is too fine will act like that.

There's a 55 gal barrel outside the shop that has recently been smacked around a bit, to see if what I'm doing now will have a similar fate. So far the barrel has some real nice gouges in it, and the swords' edges have had some marks in them that are easy to clean out.......

But the proof is in the pudding as they say, and that's why Gary G is getting a new "Phat Bastard", an AT1430 "Northern Italian Longsword", and an AT1561 to play with. All new production.... and interestingly enough all were here the week you were supposed to call......*g*

Going Shane's direction will be a couple of swords that could get tested to destruction. One of them an AT1415 with an aesthetic flaw {blade ground assymetrically}, another, an AT1555 with a gouge in the edge in the "strong" {can't really sell this "new" either}, a prototype longsword with no tag to it yet, and likely an arming sword since the Virginia Beach group is strong on sword and shield.......

I'm currently waiting on handles and wraps on some of these....

When are you comin' back to the States, Tim? The "after action" you gave me two years ago, still ranks with the best I've had........

Angus Trim