The martial viability of Mair's Scythe Technique

[John Jessop]

I'm back again, and have been putting quite a bit of effort into working through Mair's material, practicing as I go. To be honest, I've fell in love with it-the weird weapons, the clear writing style, and the story of the man himself who literally died for the art that he loved.

That being said, I'm confused about Mair's scythe material mostly because I've yet to encounter a student of HEMA who's actually used it in a sparring match (yes I've looked on the internet as well). This has made me wonder if the scythe techniques described in the manual are merely curiousities more for display or judicial duels (much like dueling with a case of rapiers or falchions) or if using the scythe techniques described in his fight book would enable someone to actually effectively fight against someone, say using an arming sword.

Has anyone here utilized or practiced Mair's scythe techniques? If so, what were your experiences with the material and do you feel as if the techniques are martially valid?

[Andrew F Ulrich]

ARMA Quad Cities is actually having a presentation in a few weeks on their Mair sickle research (among other things) . Maybe afterward I can give you a more informed assessment afterwards, but my guess is that they've found it to be pretty effective.

[Stacy Clifford]

Sickle is one thing, scythe is something else. I don't doubt that Mair's scythe instruction is martially sound, and I'm sure you could practice the techniques at moderate speed, but as far as sparring goes I think a scythe looks like about the least safe sparring weapon I can imagine. Because the point is at a right angle to the shaft, you have to stab with a cutting motion, which would be extremely difficult to control at realistic fighting speeds. A scythe is not a tool made for reversing directions quickly, and even a very blunt wooden, plastic or metal training blade could cause serious harm with a relatively light swing. A rubber blade might be safer, but it would probably be too floppy to make any of the hooking motions work well. As it is, I've never heard of anybody making a "training scythe" to try this with. (For that matter, real sharp scythes aren't all that common anymore either.) It would definitely be fun to practice if you could get one, but any attempt at sparring would have to be extremely light and cautious. I think the scythe was the Grim Reaper's tool of choice for good reason: there's no such thing as a "light" scythe wound.

As for why it's in the manual, I haven't read that section but I seriously doubt it was meant to be used on the battlefield or carried for common self defense. It looks like it's presented strictly in a dueling context. Some of it might work against other weapons as well, but it looks a lot less agile than other weapons (including other pole weapons like halberds) and overswing would be a considerable liability, though that could be partially offset by the unusual angles of attack. Voiding it might not be too difficult, but parrying a scythe with anything smaller than a staff looks scary as hell.

I admit I'm speculating here, but it would be interesting to hear from somebody who's handled the real thing on a farm before to verify its basic handling characteristics. Perhaps we can get one of our Iowa folks to chime in.

[Roger Norling]

A couple of short notes.

These guys experiment with this, but the clip is "unavailable" in some countries http://www.youtube.com/user/Djemps#p/u/10/mSXsLAzX9cc

Peasant weapons appear to have been used partly for quick self defense (ie grab whatever sharp thing you have nearby...), but also in simple militarized version. For military uses the flail received metal bands and spikes and the schythe had the blade removed and welded on onto a shaft like a glaive. I have seen both Swedish, Swiss and Polish examples of these, but they were common in other countries as well. Similarly, I have seen sickles mounted on long shafts.

It is easy to discount some of Mair's depictions as pure fantasy, and I would assume that duelling with scythes weren't very common. But duelling with with sickles and fighting with branches might be another thing. I have actually seen images of Landsknechten armed with nothing but huge branches and daggers.

[Stacy Clifford]

A couple of short notes.

These guys experiment with this, but the clip is "unavailable" in some countries http://www.youtube.com/user/Djemps#p/u/10/mSXsLAzX9cc

Nice, that's exactly what I meant about practicing at moderate speed. Sparring with those still looks like it would be a bad idea though.

[Andrew F Ulrich]

Sickle is one thing, scythe is something else.

Oops, good catch Stacy.

My impression is similar to Roger's first statement that the text probably had to do with quick self defense with a common sharp tool. I need to look at the text more closely, but I would imagine similar hooking techniques as what is found in the halberd section. Sorry for all the speculation; I'll do more research before my next post.

[Roger Norling]

My impression is similar to Roger's first statement that the text probably had to do with quick self defense with a common sharp tool.

Well, I am not really suggesting that Mair's text on the scythe is aimed at self defense in the strict sense, since it shows scythe vs scythe. However, this might be a common fechtbuch convention of showing equal weapons and you might still learn how to use it, even against other types of weapons, simply by how you strike and hook with it.

Then again, this single copy of a, curiously enough, hand-written and illustrated manual wasn't really aimed at the kind of people who regularly worked with scythes, so I still find these inclusions rather peculiar. It is kind of like writing a modern martial arts manual and include techniques with hockey sticks or brooms. Curious and perhaps interesting, but only usable in a very specific context. But IF you ever happen to find yourself in such a situation then this training will come in handy.

On the other hand I used to think the same about the fencing with branches until I saw a landsknecht carrying such to the battle field.

[John Jessop]

Thank you everyone for your prompt and interesting replies.

@Stacy: I had a similar thought regarding the unusual angles of attack that a scythe would be capable of due to it's unusual blade position. That being said, such a weapon would likely be awkward as hell until you had practiced with it for a long period of time. That being said, looking at the techniques in Mair's scythe section makes me want to head over to a website like Scythe Supply and get one so I can start practicing!

[Sal Bertucci]

I think the mechanics of using a scythe would be very different from using a halberd though.

[Kody Tench]

Where can I find a copy of the text this seems awesome to me in a very geek like way so I made a scythe based on the one picture from mair I could find. Just pine but not looking to really spar with it.

[Torrey Jones]

For the record Id love to see a martial arts book or class teaching martially efficient techniques for a hockey stick. Or for that matter just a book detailing how to fight (and how to modify to increase combat effectiveness) with any number of household tools such as hammers, baseball bats, machetes, crowbars, other various sports equipment etc etc. Might be a fun project for me to do in the future.

[s_taillebois]

"This has made me wonder if the scythe techniques described in the manual are merely curiousities more for display or judicial duels (much like dueling with a case of rapiers or falchions) or if using the scythe techniques described in his fight book would enable someone to actually effectively fight against someone, say using an arming sword."

Actually it may have been included more specifically for the man who had to face a scythe in a revolt. By the time Mair was written there had been several large peasant's revolts, with more to come.

And the audience for the fechtbuchs did tend to be amongst the elite, either the aristocracy or the new town class which had been well established by that time (and in other manners their concerns about the lower orders was quite evident, late medieval and Renn towns had the streets partially designed to chokepoint the poor in the event of revolt)

And looking at the plates and some videos it does seem the scythe is a unweildly weapon especially compared to other traditional peasant implements such as the billhook (the esteem in which that was held is evident from the old British battle cry "Bows and Bills")