WMA VS EMA

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Hello! I have just register in this arma website, I want to know , is WMA have any concept not known in EMA? I think for one continent Europe have not really much MA.

For EXample:

Ancient Age: Pankration, Greek Boxing and wrestling, folk wrestling

Medieval Age: Kampfringen,various folk wrestling.


Modern Age Bare Knuckle and Modern Boxing, Wrestling, various folk wrestling.


Influenced by EMA: Savate, Bartitsu, Defendu, Krav Maga


this is few compared to just the Chinese which have like hundreds of striking styles and hundreds of Chin Na school.

I am Chinese, just want to know what arma can offer.

I like western martial arts! however the eastern today is more popular however there is several chinese styles that have not yet known in public.

[RayMcCullough]

First off Joshua, If IG is not your actual last name, it will need to be changed per the forum rules. A moderator will kill your account if the rules are not followed.

To answer the question; " is WMA have any concept not known is EMA?"

It's hard to say since the Weapon arts of EMA have been so watered down and changed. From what they present as EMA today, I would say that Europe had/has a lot of concepts that are not in EMA. I have not encountered any techniques or concepts that are martially sound in Martial Arts from outside of Europe that are not in the Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe(MARE).

You seem to believe that Martial Arts are unarmed Arts. That is backwards thinking. The unarmed fighting comes from armed fighting. To only include unarmed fighting is a very narrow and watered down view of Combatives/Self-defense/Martial Arts. Even the Martial Arts of the East were "Weapon centric" prior to effective firearms.

Most of things you list in your European timeline are sports not Martial Arts, but that is a whole nother discussion.

[Allen Johnson]

The other part of the equation related to the "tool" being used. In relation to unarmed, that "tool" is the human body. When you get down to the real, serious, life or death fighting techniques there is going to be many areas of crossover because we are all using the same body. Asian, European, 12th century or 19th there are only so many ways to effectively break a guys arm. Eventually, most cultures figured out a few things that worked. Since everyone's body works the same way, there are naturally going to be many techniques across the board that are going to have some similarities.

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Yes, I know that is unarmed fighting and i am conscious of that, but ithinkthat unarmed fighting is the purest form of fighting so I want to begin it with unarmed fighting first then weapon based and please I really want to know what is the rule because I doesnt read to much of it (I am doing it at school)

Spartans used Pankration for unarmed combat and they include biting and gouging for it unlike other Greek city states(definitely it can be used as powerful fighting arts)

Kampfringen from what I know is not a sport they used it in armored combat and unarmored combat however Ringkunst is sport. (like Jujutsu to Judo)

In the Modern Age, many real martial art in the Western world was reduced to a sport which is bad because the West seem to have no useful MA. However person like Johannes Josephsson and Ad Santel can defeat Japanese martial artist.

This is my first forum in this website so I don't know what to do?

And I know that many Eastern Martial Arts have like degraded to theatrical form and someone even said that only 20 or 10 of all chinese martial arts is real combat MA but I will write after someone reply!

"Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears:let the weak say, I am strong" Joel 3:10 because of the most high God of course

[RayMcCullough]

Yes, I know that is unarmed fighting and i am conscious of that, but ithinkthat unarmed fighting is the purest form of fighting so I want to begin it with unarmed fighting first then weapon based and please I really want to know what is the rule because I doesnt read to much of it (I am doing it at school)

Spartans used Pankration for unarmed combat and they include biting and gouging for it unlike other Greek city states(definitely it can be used as powerful fighting arts)

Kampfringen from what I know is not a sport they used it in armored combat and unarmored combat however Ringkunst is sport. (like Jujutsu to Judo)

In the Modern Age, many real martial art in the Western world was reduced to a sport which is bad because the West seem to have no useful MA. However person like Johannes Josephsson and Ad Santel can defeat Japanese martial artist.

This is my first forum in this website so I don't know what to do?

And I know that many Eastern Martial Arts have like degraded to theatrical form and someone even said that only 20 or 10 of all chinese martial arts is real combat MA but I will write after someone reply!

"Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears:let the weak say, I am strong" Joel 3:10 because of the most high God of course

I don't understand what you would mean by "the purest form of fighting". If you choose to do unarmed, ofcourse that is yours to make, but I can guaranty you that if you start with serious weapons training you will learn self-defense faster and better intune. I know this from my own experience and the experiences of others. You will learn grappling with weapons.

The rules of the forum are on the opening page. Your alright if you put your real full name.

The evidence for Pankration as a Martial Art is not there. It was a Martial sport. The Greeks practiced Martial Arts for their combatives(pammachon) and made distinctions between their Martial sports and their Martial Arts.

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Bartitsu, Defendu, and Krav Maga is definitely not a sport. I make my own sword and practice with it, and I use sword earlier than my hands, and I think there are are several things that the sword cannot do compare to hands and feet ,etc, throwing, breaking opponents limb( do it better with hands), stomping. In weapons usage then Europe have advanced MA although I never seen it fighting with Eastern guy.

By the way have you the Silat of Indonesia , most Western guy I see in forum like silat more than Kampfringen, because it include very dirty fighting typical of southeast asian MA, stomping (very basic), clawing(childish things), attacking genitals(dirty).

[Sal Bertucci]

By the way have you the Silat of Indonesia , most Western guy I see in forum like silat more than Kampfringen, because it include very dirty fighting typical of southeast asian MA, stomping (very basic), clawing(childish things), attacking genitals(dirty).

If you think Silat is "dirtier" than RMA then you obviously never looked closely at RMA. I've already had this discussion, and don't really feel like repeating it, but you can search the forum for the topic.

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Yes, I know that there is many gouging techniques in RMA however youre right that Silat is not dirtier than RMA, but "dirty fighting" doesn't meant that the MA is better than the more refined one.

Kampfringen is good but I want to see it compared to Jjutsu or striking MA.

Kampfringen vs Silat:D

I want to know how Kampfringen people finish their opponent (without weapon), Jujutsu with rear naked choke, Silat Gayong stomping.

Have some of you spar with EMA martial artist both with weapons and without?

[RayMcCullough]

Bartitsu, Defendu, and Krav Maga is definitely not a sport.

I shold have clarified myself better. I was only refering to these:
Ancient Age: Pankration, Greek Boxing and wrestling, folk wrestling

Medieval Age: Kampfringen,various folk wrestling.

Modern Age Bare Knuckle and Modern Boxing, Wrestling, various folk wrestling.

Not these:

Influenced by EMA: Savate, Bartitsu, Defendu, Krav Maga

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Kampfringen not a sport, in the weapons MA section

Ancient Age: Greek and Roman swordsmanship, spear fighting, etc, barbarian weapns fighting techniques.

Middle Age: longsword fencing, polearms, shields, spears, axes and maces.

Modern Age: rapier fencing, bayonet fighting, knife fighitng staff fighting, walking stick fighting, and many more.

Compared to MA without weapons, theMA with weapons is more complex and often overlap several in periods, example spear fighting exist in Ancient Age, Middle Age, and Modern Age (maybe in bayonet fencing).

[RayMcCullough]

Kampfringen not a sport, in the weapons MA section

Ancient Age: Greek and Roman swordsmanship, spear fighting, etc, barbarian weapns fighting techniques.

Middle Age: longsword fencing, polearms, shields, spears, axes and maces.

Modern Age: rapier fencing, bayonet fighting, knife fighitng staff fighting, walking stick fighting, and many more.

Compared to MA without weapons, theMA with weapons is more complex and often overlap several in periods, example spear fighting exist in Ancient Age, Middle Age, and Modern Age (maybe in bayonet fencing).

Kampfringen is a Martial Art. It was the only Martial Art in the lists of things not influenced by the EMA.
The rapier is a Renaissance weapon. Its use in the modern age(classical fencing) was heavily influenced by french smallsword. This was not the case in the Renaissance.

Is bayonet a carry over of the spear? I would say no. Bayonet is and was also based on the French smallsword. The medieval and Renaissance fencing would and does apply to bayonet, but it is not based on it.

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Ah yes, I know that rapier is Renaissance weapon, but in my school we state that ModernAge is from 1500 to today so I state that the RMA is also modern MA,

is Pankration and Pammachon influenced by EMA?

or Bare knuckle boxing?
or Cornish/Lancashire/Scottish/Irish folk wrestling?

I see several manual where the musket with bayonet is hold with the right hand in front of the left hand (from pike fighting techniques) the manual is from early to mid 18th century.

I hypothesize that rapier fencing and especially smallsword fencing influenced pure modern Europen unarmed combat to much, causing
boxing and bayonet fighting to be too linear, but I will discuss it on other forum.

[RayMcCullough]

Ah yes, I know that rapier is Renaissance weapon, but in my school we state that ModernAge is from 1500 to today so I state that the RMA is also modern MA,

True, point well taken. But as far as Fencing theory goes, the rapier and the smallsword are used differently.

is Pankration and Pammachon influenced by EMA?

Nope

or Bare knuckle boxing?
or Cornish/Lancashire/Scottish/Irish folk wrestling?

Nope

I see several manual where the musket with bayonet is hold with the right hand in front of the left hand (from pike fighting techniques) the manual is from early to mid 18th century.

..And...Where are you going with this?

I hypothesize that rapier fencing and especially smallsword fencing influenced pure modern Europen unarmed combat to much, causing
boxing and bayonet fighting to be too linear, but I will discuss it on other forum.

I wouldn't say Rapier fencing is linear. Boxing is a sport that has been around much longer than the smallsword, rapier or bayonet. Bayonet fencing is definitly influenced by the smallsword. I would say that the smallsword contributed to the lack of unarmed fighting as it was relagated to only "gentlemanly fighting" over the years leaving the all in fighting out.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I see several manual where the musket with bayonet is hold with the right hand in front of the left hand (from pike fighting techniques) the manual is from early to mid 18th century.

That's odd. European pike manuals from the 16th-18th centuries (at least the ones I've read) generally show the soldier holding the pike with the left hand forward--and the left leg is the forward leg, too, so they end up facing the same way as the Shot or later soldiers with muskets/rifles and bayonets. This similarity is on such general terms that it can't really be used to draw a meaningful link between Renaissance pike fighting and later bayonet fighting. (For instance, I've never, ever seen bayonet postures based on the fundamental pike-fighting postures of "Charge Pike" or "Charge for Horse.")

[Gene Tausk]

Hello! I have just register in this arma website, I want to know , is WMA have any concept not known is EMA? I think for one continent Europe have not really much MA.

For EXample:

Ancient Age: Pankration, Greek Boxing and wrestling, folk wrestling

Medieval Age: Kampfringen,various folk wrestling.


Modern Age Bare Knuckle and Modern Boxing, Wrestling, various folk wrestling.


Influenced by EMA: Savate, Bartitsu, Defendu, Krav Maga


this is few compared to just the Chinese which have like hundreds of striking styles and hundreds of Chin Na school.

I am Chinese, just want to know what arma can offer.

I like western martial arts! however the eastern today is more popular however there is several chinese styles that have not yet known in public.

Joshua - to be honest, I have no idea what you are asking. It may be a language barrier.

Your question- does (Western Martial Arts) have any concept not known is (sic) (Eastern Martial Arts)?

Since this is the unarmed forum, I assume you are asking about unarmed arts.

I would say, if I understand your question correctly, there is nothing in EMA not known in WMA and vice-versa.