Origins of Pankration, Kampfringen, and CCC wrestling

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

I know that this is RMA website but I want to ask question about this WMA

Since when Pankration came into existence and from what?

I want to know from where do Kampfringen come, and why people stop using it anymore in the 18 and 19th century?


Catch as Catch Can wrestling came from Lancashire wrestling, and it became sport.

These three WMA is grappling MA,but why both CCC and Kampfringen is called wrestling together.

The three MA have each very different techniques:

Pankration looks like modern MMA because they feature punches,kicks, grappling and throwing techniques. it excel both in standing and ground fighting (good rival for the Silat)

Kampfringen looks like Jujutsu( maybe because both are used for combatting armored opponents and the only way defeat heavily armored opponents is with grappling)

Catch as Catch Can wrestling seem to have methods quite unlike Kampfringen although in Wikipedia it is said that Ringen became various folk wrestling after the Baroque Era.

Lancashire Wrestling is one of the folk wrestling techniques but why its techniques is not linked with any wrestling form in the world.
Much ground fighting but still not as much as BJJ.

Any informations and criticsis good.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Pankration looks like modern MMA because they feature punches,kicks, grappling and throwing techniques. it excel both in standing and ground fighting

That's because modern pankration is, well, a modern martial art. It was made up in the 1970s partly as an attempt to reconstruct ancient Greek wrestling and boxing skills, but its core techniques came from modern boxing and wrestling. No direct descent from the Ancient Greek forms in any meaningful way.

[John Farthing]

If you are interested in the origins of Pankration, I would highly recommend the following books:

The Martial Arts of Ancient Greece by Kostas Dervenis & Nektarios Lykiardopoulos

Combat Sports in the Ancient World by Michael B. Poliakoff

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

I already suspect that Pankration today is not the same as the past one, thank you for your information just want to make sure.

3 months ago I have download "Mu Tau the Modern Greek Karate" by Jim Arvanitis, and it looks like Catch as Catch Can wrestling mixed with Muay Thai, and it was called Karate!

it's easy to differentiate Karate with this, and I think this is the real Pankration . Karate have less ground and standing grappling than this. Besides the position of the hands are different than the one I see in Greek vases.

I want to download it and still doesn't find the link ( for free if possible).

Is the method of Pankration the same as Kampfringen or different?

And both are different than CCC wrestling, right.

I search books about Pankration, Kampfringen, CCC wrestling, all of these I think is the best WMA that exist and could rival the Chinese Martial Arts.

I downloaded several Old and Rare Chinese Martial Arts books and its method was unlike anything seen today. Do you want any quote from the books?. Maybe something of it is similar to something in WMA.

It is a lost and forgotten CMA just like Kampfringen and Pankration until today.


Pankration can outfight many Chinese MA because it have good grappling and hitting techniques, most CMA I see just favor striking .

[John Farthing]

Pankration was considered a combat sport, Pammachon was the Martial Art practiced by the Ancient Greeks.

Kampfringen was intended as a defensive martial system for the battlefield and in real, life or death combat scenarios. It was much more akin to modern military combatives than to pankration. Examples of this can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHldHRSi-jo

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Maybe Pankration to Pammachon is like Shuai Jiao to Jiao Li, or Ringkunst to Kampfringen,

Which do you think have the most combat value of these three, I guess CCC wrestling will be in the third place.

Is the grappling in pankration different than BJJ or Kampfringen or CCC?

I read in the historical-pankration.com that the striking in pankration is unique to WMA and unlike British pugilism and modern boxing,strange.

And then from where do hand position in old boxing comez?

I like to know also what is the difference of techniques of Pankration and Pammachon.

And how Kampfringen or should I call it just Ringen looks like modern combatives?

[LafayetteCCurtis]

And how Kampfringen or should I call it just Ringen looks like modern combatives?

Just check out the most recently declassified edition of FM 21-150 -- the US Army manual on close-quarters armed and unarmed combat. It explicitly recognises the influence from medieval and Renaissance wrestling manuals and some of the poses/techniques look nearly identical to Paulus Hector Mair's plates (the only exception being the grooming standards and the clothes!).

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Thank you.

I have both U.S. manual but I never think that Ringen is almost similar to it.

or it's just coincidence?

Ringen from what I know make use of something like kata, right or not, here comes from Ott's manual translated into English

"Another wrestling
If you wish to wrestle with someone and he grips your arm loosely, reach with your left hand over his right arm and grab his fingers or anything else. Lift his arm above you on your left side and break his balance with your right hand on his elbow."

you must do what he told ALMOST EXACTLY, is that useful in real combat where the enemy may do something unexpected?

just want to know

[Sal Bertucci]

Disagree.

This is an "If, Then..." statement. It shows a general principle with much variations as can be seen by the words "..or anywhere else..."

Is it useful in combat: Yes! If you do it when you're supposed to (as Ott teaches the situation when this technique is appropriate).

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Yes, in that case its true. I think in the its age Ringen will be taught than what is shown in the manuals.

Now new question.
How Ringen fight with many opponents ?

What is the martial arts of Middle East really? They seem inferior to both East asian and european MA.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Thank you.

I have both U.S. manual but I never think that Ringen is almost similar to it.

or it's just coincidence?

No, it's not. Read this: http://paulushectormair.blogspot.com/2008/10/ars-gladiatoris-and-modern-military.html

you must do what he told ALMOST EXACTLY, is that useful in real combat where the enemy may do something unexpected?

You're missing the point entirely. The technique you quoted is only one of several options described for dealing with the same attack, and there are other techniques available for dealing with other kinds of attacks/situations. Of course, the most important thing is that you shouldn't really be learning the techniques but rather the principles behind them, which would be applicable even when you have to deal with enemy actions that are not described in the manual.

Now new question.
How Ringen fight with many opponents ?

Many ways. To appreciate the variety you have to actually learn the art itself. There's a blog post here: http://paulushectormair.blogspot.com/2010/02/hema-groundfighting-codex-wallerstein.html that describes a tiny selection from the variety of techniques available for dealing with multiple opponents.

What is the martial arts of Middle East really? They seem inferior to both East asian and european MA.

Seriously, you seem to be making a rather large number of poorly-researched statements like this one. Please do the research and don't jump to conclusions before you've actually spent some effort seriously looking for the relevant information. Middle Eastern martial arts, like Medieval European ones, practically died out and has only begun to be reconstructed by a number of researchers from the data available in surviving manuals and historical accounts. Manouchehr Mostagh Khorasani's project is one such reconstruction.

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Pardon for the lack of information. It cannot be helped because everyday I need to study for tests and quiz, maybe just 1 or 2 hours for researching.

But I believe that by entering this forum I can get new knowledge from the person who have more knowledge than me.

Shame that kung fu is sportified and the real technique not used in the performance.

The Persian combat techniques looks like the European one with close in grappling with weapons and throws and also dagger fighting.


The person in the Codex Wallerstein lock three person have no limb able to confront another attacker, he will have to disable one of the attacker before releasing the other.Can you clarify this techniques?

"[HEMA is] nothing like Ninjitsu or Jiu-Jitsu, which make up the bulk of all Special Forces hand-to-hand training because they are superior to all other martial arts in their brutal effectiveness."

Extremely stupid myths!

Thanks to the inaccuracies perpetuated ad nauseum by Hollywood films, fantasy societies, sport fencers, video games, and the like.

that show how film could indoctrinate people (if there is series of films containing stupid ninjas fighting armored knights and win all the time then people would assume that ninjas is ALWAYS better than knights)

see the film "American Ninja", most stupid film about ninja I have ever seen.

Perhaps if there is a film about medieval warfare with real medieval martial arts, that would defeat the myths, even more powerful if a Muay Thai fighter is portrayed defeated by Kampfringen fighter, all the myths would have been undermined.

Does Sergeant Matt Larson or John Clements who first rediscover the lost medieval martial arts?

Have anyone translated the complete Mair fechtbuch vol 1 and 2 into English? if yes, can I get the website,

Finally things about stupidly brutal or like that, I never mean that, I just want to know how you guys respond to such questions.

[Randall Pleasant]

Does Sergeant Matt Larson or John Clements who first rediscover the lost medieval martial arts?

Respectfully, your question does not make sense.

Matt Larson is a martial artist and a retired solider who created the modern combatives program for the US Army. Matt Larson did use some Medieval/Renaissance techniques in his work. However, I don't think Matt Larson considers himself a scholar of Medieval and Renaissance martia arts.

John Clements was not the first to look at the lose Medieval and Renaissance martial arts. However, John Clements is the world’s foremost practitioner-instructors of Medieval and Renaissance fighting methods.

Have anyone translated the complete Mair fechtbuch vol 1 and 2 into English? if yes, can I get the website

Yes, check the Wiktenauer site at http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page.

[Joshua Immanuel Gani]

Thank You,

is Paulus Hector Mair's manual the best of all manual? (clear pictures and complete teaching)

when do people began realizing and rediscover the medieval martial art?

and how they reconstruct the techniques based only on the book?

in one website I see a quote" why learn from the book, if you can study the real thing in MMA or Judo"

and why Persian martial art died out?

[Randall Pleasant]

Thank You,

is Paulus Hector Mair's manual the best of all manual? (clear pictures and complete teaching)

when do people began realizing and rediscover the medieval martial art?

and how they reconstruct the techniques based only on the book?

in one website I see a quote" why learn from the book, if you can study the real thing in MMA or Judo"

and why Persian martial art died out?

Joshua

No manual is considered the "best". Each scholar usually has a favorite manual that they enjoy. The quality of an image is not really how well it is painted, rather the quality is in the information it presents to a viewer. In combination with its related text I personally get far more information from the more crude sword & buckler images of I.33 then I do from really nice sword & buckler image of Mair.

The process of reconstruction is divided into three phases: translation, interpretation, and application. Translation is, of course, performed only by those who have the required language skills. Once we have a translation of a manual we then build interpretations of the described techniques. In the application phase we apply our interpretations in hard free play and sparring. If an interpretation does not work in free play and sparring then we return to the interpretation phase and re-think and re-work the interpretation. Basically there is an endless cycle between the interpretation phase and the application phase.

Judo is one of the great Eastern martial arts. MMA is not a martial art, it is a sport where martial artists compete. MMA and Judo are absolutely not the "real thing" in regard to the Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe (MARE). The only way to get the "real thing" in regard to MARE is to be part of a group that is focused specifically on recreating it from the historical manuals.

Persian martial arts are off topic for this forum.