Women in medieval and renaissance martial arts...

[Guest]

Hi

Sorry if this may seem like a dumb question to some of You, but I was just wondering if anyone could inform me on any known instances (or indications) of women practicing and/or being directly involved in martial arts in the medieval and renaissance?

I've come across a person who claims that women would not have been involved in this at all during this time period, and that a woman couldn't possibly have had the chance to reach a fencing skill exceeding or even equal to a mans.

I've seen some parts of the Tallhoffer refering to "Fight between a Man and Wife", but are there other examples as well...and do we have any idea as to how common the art of fencing was among women at that time?

I get the feeling that if Tallhoffer even bothered to put this in his manual, at least dueling of this nature must have been fairly common?

However, the man in these duels seem to be placed in a pit reaching up to his waist. Are there any known duels between man and female that took place on a more equal basis?

Is there anything pointing to women being directly involved in larger scale battle as well (i.e. not duels)?

Another claim by this same person, related to the above, is that there would have been no women at this time wearing any kind of armor. Are there any indcations suggesting the opposite?

I personally find these claims hard to fully believe at this point (at least there might have been some exceptions to the rule), and I would appreciate any direct information, or directions on where to find such information, from someone with more knowledge on this subject.

Again, sorry for starting a new topic posting a question to which the answer might be common knowledge to most of You.

Nevetheless, I would really appreciate some info on this matter. Not only to educate myself, but this other person as well.

Thank's in advance

Take care

Rodney

[Mike Cartier]

I vaguely remember a story from Alfred Huttons "The sword and the centuries", a woman disguised herslf as a man and bested several good fencers (in duels possibly) before revealing her true gender. Interesting story, although I don;t know how much truth there is in it (or any of those duelling stories in that book)

[Casper Bradak]

It wasn't the norm, just as it isn't today, but there were many female combatnts throughout history. This site may help
http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women.html

[Guest]

Rodney,

See the dueling section essays from 1855. You will see how a Husband and Wife fought for money with swords by making the most cuts on thier opponents.

Todd

[Jeffrey Hull]

Check out a book called "Women Warlords" by Newark & McBride. Though some may call it pedestrian (aka it is interesting rather than academic -- which does not mean that it is not scholarly), I think this book is fine. It tells of Joan D'Arcy of France, Aethelflaed of England, and Boudicca of Britain, amongst a number of others, daring to illustrate such vibrantly, and really gets into the likely founding of the Amazon-myth. It should quell any of the usual safe assumptions that women never fought in ancient times, which one tends to run across in martial discourse. Good luck! JH

[Jay Vail]

I recall reading in one book of Thomas Costain’s 4-volume history of Medieval England a story that was very illuminating on the subject of women and martial arts. According to Costain, a jongleur was climbing a staircase in a castle tower when he passed an open door. In the room beyond, he caught a glimpse of a young woman who was engaging in a “sword exercise.” Apparently this exercise was quite vigorous and impressive.

This reference, if true, is interesting on a couple of levels. First, indicates that women were taught martial arts. This should not be too surprising, since Japanese samurai women also were taught some fighting methods. Second is the reference to “sword exercise.” If this is translated and recounted correctly, it suggests a learned, pre-arranged pattern for practicing the use of the weapon.

I searched for this reference last night so I could cite it for you. However, so far I have been unable to find it. I hope my memory of the story is accurate. But it struck me so sharply when I read it that I think I am at least pretty close.

[George Turner]

There's also the woman's high guard, which might indicate that women were using swords. Once I was struck with the idea that a woman in a beehive hair style would have to perform Vom Dach to the side, or the hilt would snag in her hair. A martial arts class in the 1960's would probably have had to make the same modification. "Men overhead, women to the side..." Anyway, just some idle speculation.

One interesting book I read on a more recent example of women in combat was "Rebels in Blue. The story of Keith and Melinda Blalock". They were the only couple to fight on both sides of the U.S. Civil War, and came from the hills of North Carolina, where certain aspects of the culture were considered backwards even for the 1600's. For example, if you catch a family enemy unawares, squatting near a campfire or something, then God is looking favorably down upon you, and has delivered them into your hands. So you put a rifle bullet through their head. Anyway, it's a fascinating story, and they were both wounded numerous times. I think she ended up as a cavalry officer. Either way, both she and her husband were very efficient killers, often of their southern leaning neighbors, which resulted in a continual stream of post-war lawsuits, which is how their case became so well documented.

We still have parts of this culture alive in Eastern Kentucky, where sometimes a defense of "Everybody knew he needed killing" will sway a grand jury. My aunt's neighbor, who I was vaguely aquainted with, was killed by a homeowner in a dispute over a roofing job. When his mother was asked if she wanted to file a lawsuit she replied, "No, we always knew he needed killin'. Or he was gonna kill somebody."

George Turner
ARMA in KY

[Shane Smith]

George, I think the guard of the woman is called that simply because you have to have your back toward your opponent somewhat to pull it off.....You know, you're not facing your opponent like a man,but rather turning tail as if to run.... like a woman...... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> I could be wrong though! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[George Turner]

Hi Shane,

Don't let women find out about your idea! I can see your next practice, when you get viciously attacked from the upper proud woman's guard. "Turn tail!!! Run like a woman!!! I'll show you!" Be sure to wear a cup to your next practice... <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure that the high guard is the best way to break out of an engagement. I guess at any point you could open the space, then use Cobb's traverse and run for the hills. But I generally consider the upper guards to invite an attack while presenting a strong offensive threat. If someone was going to turn tail I'd think they'd have followed rule 12. "If you frighten easily, don't learn to fence."

Anyway, my idea on a woman's hair ruling out Vom Dach over the head was just a thought based on looking for anything that would make a woman perform a particular action different from a man. If the name of the guard actually reflects a difference in posture between the genders, which is a big if, unless hawks and rabbits and iron doors really do use swords, then I would look for a possible reason for the difference. The only things I can think of are clothing, like the restrictions that might be imposed by a modern business suit, and things like a big beehive, Marge Simpson hair style.

Best Regards, and hope you're still allowed to date after your last post! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

George Turner <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Randall Pleasant]

Shane

In a recent class on Forie, Bob Charron said that the Guard of the Woman is so named because of a line of text associated with the guard that says "...you may reache for one thing but will grab another...", meaning that the sword is held well away from the adversary in case he comes in the grapple he is not able to grab your sword or sword arm.

[Shane Smith]

Hello Randall,
I don't get what you're saying.In what way does the holding away of the weapon infer the name "womans guard"? I don't see the analogy at all. I also don't see where the "expect to grab one thing,yet grab another" line of text bears out that interpretation either unless we're speaking of hermaphrodites <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> . Please simplify the parable for me! Thanks! <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Randall Pleasant]

Shane

You must be a very young man! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> In the context of a woman the phase can have many interpretations to us older men. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> For instance, you might reach for a breast and get a slap. <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> You might reach for a girl and grab yourself a wife. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> In any case, interpreting the phase is like trying to interpret a woman - you can find many answers but most likely your wrong. <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

Well, let me get ready to be beaten by some of our female members. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Hello Randall,

I must be a young whipper-snapper(snicker) as I have truly not heard any of those sayings.... I'm also married to a good woman so I don't often get smacked when I reach for "things"unless it's my own paycheck(Imagine that! Just how does THAT work? <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) I will defer to your greater age-induced wisdom on this particular aspect of interpretation. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Belinda_Hertz]

Hi,
Interesting question because while not widely available there is documented evidence of women fighting. Throughout the middle ages women picked up arms often to help defend their lands and castles when their husbands were away. It has been documented that women fought during the crusades displaying both leadership and battle skills. There is also evidence that women were called into battle sometimes bringing their own weapons and armour.

There are stories of noble women such as Isabelle I of Castille, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Jeanne of Navarre leading armies into battle or fighting to defend their castles. Eleanor is said to have often dressed in amour and carried weapons. There are numerous books out on these ladies which highlight some of their skills. Common women were also said to have actually had their own weapons again learning skills to help defend themselves and their families.

While there are no manuals (that we know of) dedicated to the fighting arts of women during this time you can occasionally see in historical art from that period woman carrying arms and just recently I saw one from the renaissance with a women standing over a man after cutting his throat with a sword.

As mentioned earlier Newark's book is interesting and there are some other books about the time period that mention women and their martial skills in passing. I will try to dig up one of the pieces of artwork and post here. As with anything I hope more information will become available as we continue to turn up new sources and manuals.

Belinda