Help with research?

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Marie Stone
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Help with research?

Postby Marie Stone » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:23 pm

Hi There,

I am a novelist working on a book set in Italy in 1493-1513, and it’s important to me that I be as accurate as possible with regard to weapons and fighting techniques for the time period, especially given that two of my point-of-view characters are trained and skilled at arms. I have been doing research for a few weeks now on this particular subject, but frankly, it is a dauntingly broad field of research, and I have been having trouble tracking down information at the level of detail that I need. Would any of you lovely folks be willing to let me pick your brains, either here or via email, so that the book can be more accurate?

Thanks a bunch.

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James Brazas
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Postby James Brazas » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:00 pm

Marie Stone,

I'm glad to see an author with an interest in historically authentic arms and combat.

Probably the most important primary sources for you would be the works of Fiore Delli Liberi, Philippo di Vadi Pisano, or maybe even Antonio Manciolino. Manciolino's works weren't published until the 1520's-1530's, though.

Copies of those swordsmen's works and others like them can be found at:
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Masters

Those works teach a very extensive series of techniques with all of the weapons considered appropriate for a knight or men at arms in Italy at the time. Fiore Delli Liberi's works are the easiest to understand especially since they have pictures, but his are also the earliest.


As far as what arms and armor they would be using, that would depend on their social class and on the type of combat they are dealing with.

Only the rich could afford a full suit of plate armor - the Milanese plate armor being among the most popular designs. The middle classes would have used partial suits of armor, such as a helmet, breastplate, and gauntlets. They would also typically have a thick gambeson underneath that and possibly some maille. Even then, that would have been quite expensive.

Depending on the era and the personal preferences of the knight, a full suit of plate armor might range between 40 and 80 lbs. 70-80 lb. suits of armor were very rare though. A more realistic weight might be 50-60 lbs for the 1400s.

Regarding arms, it would depend on the situation. Longswords are a safe bet for anyone in the upper classes as they were suitable for combat in virtually every situation. That's one of the reasons ARMA tends to emphasize the longsword. Longswords (Italian Spada Longa) were also called War Swords and Hand-and-a-Half swords. Messers, Dussacks, and other curved blades tended to be more effective against lightly armored opponents since it was virtually impossible to kill a man in full plate using a cutting stroke. Killing a man in full plate was normally done via a stab/thrust to a weak point in the armor such as the eyes/face, the armpit, the groin, or the bend of the knee. Pollaxes were also a popular weapon for combat on foot against full plate clad enemies. They were big, powerful, and could be used to either dent and crush armor in on the enemy or to stab at weak points. They were in appearance a mixture of a hammer, an axe, and a spear and are close cousins to the halberd. Pollaxes also typically had a spike on the bottom tip of the shaft as well. Daggers and spears would have been used by all classes.

During that time period, most fighting men with any real money would have carried around a longsword and a dagger for self-defense. Alternatives for the longsword would include the falchion, messer, dussack, or side sword. In Italy, the side-sword was by far more popular.

The side-sword was a one-handed, double-edged, straight sword with finger ring guards allowing the wielder to put his/her index finger safely above the cross guard. It could effectively be used to cut down lightly armored opponents with the edge or pierce armored enemies with the point. It was better suited for thrusting with the point, though. The side sword was often used alone, though it could be used with a buckler, dagger, target shield, or cloak. The side sword gained in popularity during the 1500s and 1600s, so it might be better to stick with the longsword for your book. The longswords ranged from 2.5 - 4 lbs with most being approx. 3 lbs. Their blade lengths were usually 3 feet or slightly more.

The staff was also a very popular weapon throughout Europe, though it was not particularly well suited to a battlefield with armor unless it was proparly treated and had steel points. Later German schools of fencing featured such staffs (almost double-ended spears).

The weapons I would look into the most would be the longsword, the dagger, and the spear. They were considered the three main knightly weapons of the age, with the pollaxe sometimes considered the 4th knightly weapon (though the pollaxe was not well suited for mounted fighting). Regarding ranged weapons, the Italians were known for having highly skilled crossbowmen.

Another important point is to remember that fighting with a longsword without armor and fighting with a longsword in full plate armor is very different. Fighting in full plate against an enemy in full plate while both of you are on foot means that you will be "half-swording." That is a fighting style unique to late-medieval Europe in which you actually place one or both hands on the blade of the longsword and wield the longsword as if it were a short spear. This allows you to gain far greater point control for stabbing at narrow gaps in the armor. It also gives you more power in your stabbing. Half-swording techniques include far more than just stabbing at weak-points. It also includes hooking techniques using the cross-guard, smashing techniques using the pommel, lots of grappling, etc. Fiore Delli Liberi has a great section on half-swording.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask me or anyone else on the ARMA forums.

I would advise directing your questions towards ARMA study group leaders as they would have the most knowledge and experience. All I have studied so far has been from the German masters, so I could not provide much help with the actual use of the blades if you want Italian styles.

Another option is to ask Steven Reich. He specializes in Italian swordplay from the 1500s, so he would be an excellent resource.

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James Brazas
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Postby James Brazas » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:08 pm

Edit:

Longsword: one-handed or two-handed (usually two)
2.5-4 lbs.
3 foot blade or slightly longer

Side-Sword: one-handed
2-2.5 lbs.
a few inches under 3 feet long on average

Both are straight, double-edged blades.

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Corey Roberts
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Postby Corey Roberts » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:20 pm

Thank you very much for basing your research for your book on actual historical methods and inquiring with us. I often read historical fiction and nothing ruins the immersion for me when I'm reading an otherwise excellently researched book as when the supposedly "skilled" main character starts doing ridiculous things with his weapons.

I would be glad to answer any specific questions you may have related to swords or swordsmanship and their usage, and if I can't answer them myself I should be able to find somebody who can.

Feel free to send me a private message for my email if you would like to ask any particular questions.
--Scholar-Adept
Pyeongtaek
Republic of Korea

Marie Stone
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Postby Marie Stone » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:30 pm

@James:

Thank you so much! That was incredibly helpful, especially the link. I have been reading up on some of the masters of that period, and started reading delli Liberi’s work, but I made the mistake of trying to read it all in one go and my eyes started to cross, right about where he gets into dagger techniques. I’m going to have to break it into smaller chunks if I want to absorb it all, but it definitely gave me a better sense of what fighting was like then and how different it was from what I had seen previously, which made me want to make it accurate that much more – the real thing was far more dramatic and dynamic, IMO. My reading thus far has given me a great general overview, but when I went to write the first of what will be a great many fight scenes, I realized that I needed more detail.

The point-of-view character in the scene is the Archbishop of Valencia, who spends a hell of a lot more time hunting, fighting, and chasing skirt than he does praying, which was pretty much par for the course at this time. He is seventeen, with a relatively tall, slender build. He has plenty of training, skill, and natural talent but his experience at this point has been limited to street brawls, dueling and the like. He was trained primarily by Spaniards, and given his personality, I would think that he would favor a fighting style reminiscent of Pietro Monte’s, emphasizing speed, aggression, and deception. He likes to stay abreast of the latest developments in weaponry and warfare, and would likely sport a sword that was the cutting edge (no pun intended) of fashion at the time.

His opponent is the Marquis of Mantua, who is 27, with a short, stocky build. He is a veteran of several campaigns, so he has battle-field experience as well as urban fighting experience. He is not terribly bright, but he is widely regarded as one of the bravest knights in Italy. I’m thinking he would favor a more traditional weapon and a relatively straightforward fighting style.

They are both rich, and they have both traveled to Siena for the Palio horse race, along with their households. The Archbishop’s horse wins the race, and when he gets word later that the Marquis has paid off the judges to reverse the decision, he loses it and goes after the Marquis, attacking him in the palazzo that is hosting him.

So, first, how many weapons would gentleman bring with him on a trip like that, where he was being hosted in someone else’s palazzo? The Archbishop would be armed only with the weapons he would be carrying around the city with him – would that be a side sword? They were in use at this point, weren’t they? Or would he carry something else, given his personality and tastes? Would he also carry a dagger of some sort? The Marquis would have access to whatever weapons he had brought with him, so he could go for whatever sword he favors, probably something heavier than what the Archbishop is carrying. Given that his tastes run to the traditional, would that be a longsword?

When the Archbishop faces the Marquis, he will size up the room, his opponent’s weapon, and his style and then adjust his tactics accordingly, correct? So when he looks at this guy’s sword and sizes it up mentally, what will he be thinking – I am assuming that many of the terms used to now to categorize weapons would not have been used then. Would he think of it as a longsword or would he think of it in other terms, like whether it’s one or two-handed and how long/heavy it looks? Would the design of the hilt make a substantial enough difference that I should mention it as part of his assessment?

What adjustments would you speculate he would make based on that assessment before he launches his attack? Also, keep in mind that they aren’t alone in the room – their respective gentlemen posses would be duking it out all around them as well.

Marie Stone
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Postby Marie Stone » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:32 pm

@Corey:

Thanks so much! I would definitely take you up on that.

Andrew F Ulrich
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Postby Andrew F Ulrich » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:07 am

There have been a few authors who have visited this forum in the last few years. Here is a recent thread started by a novelist:
http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... light=book

I think there was another thread too but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

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James Brazas
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Postby James Brazas » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:59 am

Marie Stone:

You're certainly welcome.

Regarding studying the manuals, you're right. Don't try to study it all at once. There is a lot of material there. If you wanted to learn to perform it all properly, it would likely take months and months of training to gain any real proficiency. Fiore Delli Liberi had 50 years of experience by the time he finished writing his manuals.

Regarding their weapons of choice, I would definitely agree that the Marquis should have a longsword. It was the classic knightly weapon for that era and would have been the traditional weapon of choice. With his traditional tastes and military background, such a battlefield weapon would be ideal. Likely his back-up weapon would be a rondell dagger. The dagger was quicker to the draw and better for very close fighting/wrestling.

Regarding the Archbishop, you could give him a side-sword (sometimes called cut-and-thrust swords or single swords). The side-sword is usually more associated with the 1500s and 1600s, but it would probably be seeing use by the era you are writing about. After all, it was the featured weapon in Manciolino's fencing manual and that was only a decade or so after your chosen time period.

If the Archbishop is aggressive, fashionable, flashy, and into all the newest fighting methods, you should consider having him use a dagger in his other hand or maybe even a cloak. Both of which were considered outlandish and flashy styles for that era, but saw use in plenty of duels. Side-sword and dagger later became one of the more popular dueling methods of the 1500s and 1600s. It seems it was not used on the battlefield with as much frequency, though.

If you take a look at the videos and photos on the ARMA website, you should be able to find lots of examples of longsword vs. side-sword matches.

As far as what the Archbishop would think when he saw the Marquis draw a longsword, the weapon would not likely seem remarkable to him. Longswords were standard weapons for knights and lords of the era, so an experienced fighter would likely have fought many times against longswordsmen. "Spada Longa" was the term used in Italy at the time for the longsword - and it is simply Italian for "longsword." ARMA tries to use the same terminology they did back in our era of study. The main things he would probably be looking for would be the particular style the Marquis used (there were many styles of using the longsword) as well as the edge geometry of the blade itself. Wider blades were better suited for powerful cutting strokes whereas sharply tapering blades were better suited for thrusting/stabbing. Simply observing the shape of the blade would give him a clue to what sorts of attacks to expect.

For good examples of historically accurate weapons, try

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... extgen.htm

The "Machiavelli" might be a good sword to base your Archbishop's weapon on if you decide to go with a side-sword.

The difference in body build would also be key. If the Marquis is notably shorter and stronger, then the Archbishop has a range advantage. He can win more easily by keeping his enemy at bay using his longer arms and longer weapon reach (the blade may be shorter, but the stance is longer). The Marquis, on the other hand, must close the distance to win. With his greater strength, this means he would likely try to get past the Archbishop's sword's point and go for attacks closer in. He may even try half-swording despite the fact that it is a no-armor duel. He would almost certainly try to use pommel strikes, cross-guard strikes, unarmed attacks, and grappling. So it could very likely turn into a match all about distance. One trick the Marquis might use would be to switch to a one-handed use of the longsword to temporarily gain the reach advantage as taught by Fiore Delli Liberi. Two-handed use was preferred as it gave better control and power with the longsword, but one-handed use was useful for getting more range or freeing the off-hand for grappling. Those are just a few ideas.

For ideas on how they would deal with groups, feel free to read our "On the battlefield different than one on one?" thread.

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James Brazas
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Postby James Brazas » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:10 pm

Oh, and they should obviously be examining one another's stances. What stance they use will determine what sorts of attacks they are likely to perform and what openings are available to attack at.

A good swordsman would vary his stance fairly frequently to avoid being predictable and may even assume a stance to deceive the enemy into expecting a particular attack.

Realistically, most duels without armor were over in a matter of seconds - maybe a minute tops. Of course, that's no fun for novels or movies, so I don't think even the most radical purists in ARMA would fault you for stretching it out and making it more interesting.

Marie Stone
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Postby Marie Stone » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:22 pm

James Brazas wrote:A good swordsman would vary his stance fairly frequently to avoid being predictable and may even assume a stance to deceive the enemy into expecting a particular attack..

That definitely sounds like something that the Archbishop would be doing here. I'm not sure whether or not the Marquis would, for the simple reason that he doesn't perceive the Archbishop to be that great a threat in a one-on-one fight, because he's young and inexperienced and a priest rather than a warrior. He will expect him to have basic skills but nothing beyond that, which is his mistake.

James Brazas wrote:Realistically, most duels without armor were over in a matter of seconds - maybe a minute tops. Of course, that's no fun for novels or movies, so I don't think even the most radical purists in ARMA would fault you for stretching it out and making it more interesting.

Actually, for this particular fight, it doesn't need to be drawn out. Fast and realistically brutal is preferable here. The main emotional impact of the chapter isn't that the Archbishop wins the fight, although he does. It's in how he chooses to end it - he's going to decide not to kill the Marquis because it will suit his long-term political goals better. It will be the first time in his life that he makes a decision on how to apply violence based on politics and long-term thinking rather than personal impulse, and it's a turning point for him as a character. When I had visualized the scene, I had thought that the Archbishop's blade breaks and he moves in close, really fast and takes the Marquis down, ringing his bells a good one on the floor, then puts him in a hold and starts whaling on him with his fists, very similar to the last match in this clip here:
http://www.thearma.org/Videos/IDS_training_demo1.mp4

So, I need to figure out whether that is realisitically feasible as an outcome for the fight, and how best to paint a clear picture for the reader of what is happening and what the Archbisop is thinking about while he does it. There will be plenty of opportunities later in the book for more drawn out and flashy fights.

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:59 pm

Let me know when you are ready for someone to do the screenplay adaptation of this! :)
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry


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