ARMA, historians, hollywood, and video games

[Allen Johnson]

Jonathan Kaplan- I'd gently disagree as it seems that those in the game industry tend to be more steeped in the fanciful applications of swords. For instance, you honestly don't see bizzaro swords like explode with blue fire and cast lightning bolts at enemies in movies. However, in a video game, no one would blink an eye.

With such a wide and varied amount of fantasy that is available to game makers, I think that they would be even more reluctant to "limit" their options to just real life examples. The suspension of disbelief is much easier to maintain in video games than in most movies. Just my opinion and observations

James Brazas- Thank for the compliment. How can ARMA members help? Well, it's a difficult question because ARMA is most definitely not a stunt team nor a collection of stage combatants or choreographers. To make an ARMA push into the field would drastically alter what ARMA's successful vision has been for all these years.
This last summer when I was doing my certification testing with the SAFD, I was venting a few of my frustrations to one of the more understanding instructors.He understood my approach and suggested that I look at stage combat like learning a role. Coming from an acting background I understood that to mean that in this instance this "character" fought in this particular manner. He accurately observed that I always fight like "Allen". My martial arts training (both with ARMA, MMA training and others) had developed my personal "style" or physical accent if you will. An actor has to be able to look, move and fight like the character...not themselves. So if the character happened to fight poorly...that's the character...not me. So that helped a little bit. Understanding the art and craft of acting as well as combat is vital to making this system work. Now, can it still be done with accurate techniques? For the most part, yes. But it's never been an emphasis or a burning desire within the stage combat community or by audiences as a whole.

So back to your original question, what can ARMA members do? I'd say, keep researching and training and digging for truth and then get it published. Get it out there. Make videos, write books, submit articles. Most of these students especially, have no idea this stuff even exists. I actually have an article that is likely to be published in the next SAFD magazine, "The Fight Master". I wrote on the true broadsword and how it is not a medieval sword. I make the charge to readers to start using the correct term and then perhaps the organizations they belong to will change their terminology to the correct usage. It's just a little change, but it goes against everything that has been taught in the last 100 years of stage combat. So keep at it with your research! Knowledge is power. But that knowledge applied to medium is lasting!

[Allen Johnson]

There is another factor at play which also makes it more difficult to perform accurate fights in film. That is the influence of the director or star actor. Often times a fight choreographer will be asked by the director or a leading actor to give them something cool. A dialogue might go something like this:

Director: OK, for this last fight I want a cool finishing move. Like some jumpy, flippy, slashing thing. Like an awesome, unbeatable super move.

Choreographer: OK, now you know this is total fantasy and isn't a legitimate move for this time period we are working in?

Director: Hey, man, as long as it looks cool, right?! How many people would know that anyway? So can you do it?

Choreographer: Yes, sir.

At the end of the day, this is the guy (vicariously) who signs you check. If you are difficult and refuse to cooperate with his vision, your career will be over before you know it. And we all know how easy it is for star actors to get people fired on set if you don't cater to them. So, sometimes, it's just about keeping your job and reputation of being a "team player" intact.

[James Brazas]

That certainly does sound very frustrating.

Still, we need people like you if we're ever going to get society to realize what real historical swordsmanship was like. Every little bit helps.

What do you think the chances are of there being any major movie in the near future with mostly realistic swordplay?

Also, what movies have you worked on?

I am of the persuasion that anything of real value is worth doing even if it takes a long time or is difficult. So even if it turns out to be difficult to get hollywood and the video game industry to finally reflect something resembling reality in their swordplay, I'm OK with that.

The trouble is, I'm in no position to be able to do too much about it right now. All I know as far as medieval weapons go is longsword - and even then I'm not really an expert. Right now, I'm looking at the possibility of writing a law journal article on the history of dueling. So I guess that's my contribution for now.

That's why I'd really like to see those with more experience get in contact with the hollywood and gaming groups.

[Allen Johnson]

I'm certainly not privy to all the projects that are up and coming, so I don't know. It just depends. There was a recent straight to video movie called "Ironclad" that had a few moments of some good stuff. One of the few that actually used halfswording with a true two hander. Fight Choreographer Richard Ryan (who I had the opportunity to meet with briefly this last summer) did that fight and also did the fights for Troy, Stardust, The Last Legion, both Sherlock Holmes, The Dark Knight, The Eagle and others. If you look at all of them you see a wide range of abilities and adherence to period techniques. He is capable of using them...just depends on all the factors we talked about. He is currently doing Anna Karenina, so who knows?

What it really is going to take is a single project deciding from the beginning that they are going to be true to period fighting techniques. That means both the director, producers and choreographers all agree on how to approach the fighting. If that project is successful, others will gradually follow. That's the way it works in almost all business.

[David Karl Shearin]

This may sound silly, but hear me out.

I think that the best way to influence the lamestream media is to simply continue doing what we do best - study and learn.

I believe, and I may be wrong, but the more confident we become in our martial crafts, the rest of the world will begin to catch on and start to strongly desire more of what we have to offer, and that is the ONLY way I think the lamestream media is ever truly influenced - when enough people want something, the lamestream media usually wants/needs to give it to them.

Just a thought.

Btw, my first post on the boards.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Jonathan Kaplan- I'd gently disagree as it seems that those in the game industry tend to be more steeped in the fanciful applications of swords. For instance, you honestly don't see bizzaro swords like explode with blue fire and cast lightning bolts at enemies in movies. However, in a video game, no one would blink an eye.

I would say that some games have been ever so slightly groping toward this, even with swords that look obviously incredibly fantastic or fanciful weapons and armor. You can have a model of a person draped in the most fanciful looking fantasy armor and weapons use techniques that look more martially sound just as easily as you can have a model of a person in realistic armor and with realistic weapons do the same. Take the game Might and Magic Heroes VI. It has some of the most gratuitous, over-the-top fantasy weapons and armor I have ever seen. But one of the spear and shield wielding units (it is a strategy game) in the game? It has a special move animation that actually has him punching the enemy with his shield to stun them before stabbing them with his spear.

So what I am trying to say is -- just because there is magic or flaming weapons or unrealistic armor and weaponry or anything like that in the game doesn't mean that the animations don't have to look realistic, and indeed, I think it is motion capture for animations where we should focus our suggestions, not anything else. Aesthetic looks are stylistic choices carefully made for the sort of story the game wants to invoke. Moves -- especially when slowed down -- don't necessarily have to be fantastic (as in fantasy or unrealistic) to not be jarring against a fanciful backgdrop.

Think of it this way... do you know what a totally awesome looking 'finishing move' would be?

Closing to grapple range and then tearing the sword out of the enemy hands, and, holding it by the blade away from the enemy, repeatedly stabbing them in the neck with the quillons of your sword.

Sound familiar?

It is that sort of thing that screams badass that is just not seen in cinema or videogames that makes me think we have a chance in videogames, even with the fanciful games...

[Corey Roberts]

I actually have all the Riddle of Steel rules and manuals on PDF.

[Allen Johnson]

Welcome David. I would agree with your thought but would add one element to it. And that is publication (or distribution). Unless the public sees it, they won't be aware of it. 99% of the movie going public is not going to check an ARMA forum to see details on the latest sword movie they just saw in the cinema. (Somewhere, someone is screaming, 'we are the 99%!') There has to be a way that the "lamestream" media gets a hold of this material. That's why I stressed the importance of writing books, articles, posting or producing video, etc. This is how things get noticed.

Jonathan- I see your point and can sort of agree. I am not involved in the video game world much at all (I do have an old x-box) and am not current on the recent developments. So it's good to hear little stuff filtering through.

[David Karl Shearin]

Welcome David. I would agree with your thought but would add one element to it. And that is publication (or distribution). Unless the public sees it, they won't be aware of it. 99% of the movie going public is not going to check an ARMA forum to see details on the latest sword movie they just saw in the cinema. (Somewhere, someone is screaming, 'we are the 99%!') There has to be a way that the "lamestream" media gets a hold of this material. That's why I stressed the importance of writing books, articles, posting or producing video, etc. This is how things get noticed.

Good point. We must find ways to demonstrate to and educate the public, but to do so without compromising or betraying our art.

Thanks for the welcome.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

So would anyone like to draft a letter to send to some video game companies? Some sort of nice and formal business letter, with some images as well? Something that can be mailed via dead tree, to show we mean business?

[Allen Johnson]

I'm not sure that approach would be very effective. People have to be shown that what you have to offer will be better than what they are currently doing. That means demos. The other part of it, is that the bottom line comes back to how will a change in game play, style, whatever, effect profits. Same with films...will people pay more money or less to see this? That's the biggest and and hardest question to answer and is probably the largest reason so little change has occurred. It's worked so far...

[Chris Holloman]

Hey Jonathan,

I love the enthusiasm. Ultimately I think someone with in the Historic fencing community will need to make a mod (say for Mount and Blade for example) that would create some buzz.

Also, I am a fellow Kentuckian so send me a PM. We might be close enough to each other to meet up and do some training...

Bro. chris

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

I looked for some videos about videogame motion capture... I found one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxJrhnynlN8

From looking at other videos on motion capture on the web, it looks like that unless you have a really good rig, you have to repeat the same movement over and over again from lots of different angles... It looks like putting together a demo video against a plain background would be helpful -- like against a camera lighting background?

[James Brazas]

Interesting. I saw the video as well.

I wonder what the cost of such a rig would be?

I also found it interesting that despite setting the game in Renaissance Italy, the fencing was clearly Japanese.

He wasn't a bad fencer, but it was clearly not Italian style.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Also, I am a fellow Kentuckian so send me a PM. We might be close enough to each other to meet up and do some training...

Well, Arma KY is wayyyyy down in Murray, really far from me. There were a few people in Northern Kentucky, but they kinda dropped off the map; I was hoping for someone who could help modify my cheap Cold Steel plastic Waster to be better balanced... What part of KY are you in?