Translation of Gladiatoria spear plays

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Benedict Haefeli
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Translation of Gladiatoria spear plays

Postby Benedict Haefeli » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:04 am

I looked at the resources on manuals, and noted that the scans for the Gladiatore are too small to read the text. Is it possible to download a version with larger scans somewhere? I could offer to help translate some passages in return, since german is my mother tongue and I have some small expieriences with mideaval german from texts of Martin Luther, although I'll have to see how it goes. I'd have to take a look at the texts before I can promise anything...
Last edited by Benedict Haefeli on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Benedict Haefeli » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:35 pm

Brad was so free to send me this link:
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_group
Here the plain german text of Gladiatoria can be found, as well as larger scans of the images and an english translations for everything except spears. I took the liberty to translate those, I find it rather easy going with a few exceptions here and there. The last technique might deserve some special notice, as it sounds like one heck of an incredible move. Pommel throw FTW! :lol:

Spear
Krakow Version
note: the focus in some plays can shift from one depicted fighter to the other without seam in language or perspective or even without a break in the sentence. Everything is addressed in the second person, for both fighters. The shift is recognisable in context with the images, but I denoted it in the text by [shift] to make for easier reading.

At some places where I wasn't quite sure or could imagine an alternative meaning I noted the literal translation. Also I sometimes put some clarifications in [] that are not contaiined in the german text.

1v.
Note the first play of the spear. When you initially enter the barricades, and see your oponent, hold your buckler in your left hand and raise your spear [with the right hand] for a powerfull downwards thrust and see where you might hit him easiest. - [shift. at least I think so] Turn the spear with the iron towards the ground (lit: turn the iron below itself) and deflect the thrust he wanted to direct at you with a strong blow. And when you deflect his thrust, aim for his left foot and thrust with force, using both hands [maybe: put your weight on your left foot, but I don't think so].

2r.
Note the second play of the spear. If he foiled the thrust of your spear, draw your sword and hold it in your left hand, point down, awaiting his powerfull thrust. Close in, grip your sword with both hands and keep him from getting to his sword, and see if you can part him from his spear.

2v.
Note the third play of the spear. If he grabs his spear with all his might and prepares for a thrust to your face, set your spear on the ground in front of you, point up, and deflect his thrust with an upward blow. This way you avert his thrust on your face. Now change your position (lit. "turn your place") and thrust at him as best as you can.

3r.
Note the fourth play. If he threw his spear at you, grip your spear with all your strength and thrust at him with all your power. [shift] If he thrusts at you with all his strength, deflect his blow with your left hand, put it under your left armpit and hold it there. Draw your sword and throw it where you have the best chance of wining.(??lit: shoot. probably in the sense of throwing a thrust or a blow. It seems a bit strange to literally throw your sword at the enemy, especially if it only leaves you with the dagger. On the other hand, this would be the only place where the word is used for anything else than literally throwing)

3v.
Note the fitht play. If you threw your spear and missed and his counter-thrust comes too fast (lit: hasty, but see sixth play on why I think that this would not be an accurate translation) grip your sword with both hands and deflect the thrust with an upwards strike. After deflecting, hold your sword in your right hand (lit: armed hand) and work it around his spear.

4r.
Note the sixth play. If you threw your spear at him and missed, and his counter-thrust comes too fast (lit: hasty) for you to get to your sword, draw your dagger and deflect his thrust so it passes your left side. Now close in on him and try to part him from his spear.

4v.
Note the seventh play. If you have successfully parted him from his spear and he draws his sword and strikes at you, grab the dagger in both hands and catch his blow between your hands with the dagger. This way, you can start wrestling for his sword.

5r.
Note the eighth play. Grab you spear for a powerfull throw (this time it definitaley means throwing) and decide wheather you might hit him, to not throw your spear in vain. If he throws at you first, prepare to thrust your spear at him and see where you might hit him. Keep at this play as long as you can (That would be until the opponent gets his sword out, I presume).

5v.
note the ninth. When he holds his buckler in his left hand, raised his spear for throwing and is now looking where he might best hit you, put your spear and buckler together (i.e. in the left hand) and place your spear on the ground in front of you. Draw your sword with your right hand and wait for his throw.

6r.
Note the tenth play. If he dropped his buckler and is holding his spear and sword together and thrusts at you with strength and wants to work you vigourously, hold your spear and your buckler together and vigorously resist him for as long as you can (I presume this means wrestling with the spear...).

6v.
Note the eleventh play. When he holds his buckler in his left hand and raised his spear above his head, ready to throw, and wants to throw it at you, put your sword and buckler together in your left hand and watch out for his throw. Catch it with your buckler, raise your spear above your head and throw it swiftly at where you might hit him. This way you are free to get at your sword.

7r.
Note the twelth play. If you want to end him rightly (something along those lines, not really shure what "entten is supposed to mean) hold your spear and sword together on your arm, unscrew the pommel of your sword and throw it at him vigorously (no joke... it's even clearly visible in the picture!). Close in with the throw and use your sword or spear, whatever suits you best. [shift] When he throws his pommel at you, keep your buckler close to you and watch out for the throw. Hold your spear in your right hand and prepare to thrust, to stop him from closing in if it is his intention.

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John Farthing
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Postby John Farthing » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:31 pm

Nice! Thanks for posting this!
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Benedict Haefeli
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Postby Benedict Haefeli » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:42 am

I have a question to one of the gladiatoria swordplays. The translation of the play isn't entirely accurate in the link I have posted above, but what's more confusing is the knowledge presuposed in the technique:

If each grabbed the others point, throw yourself through the swords, as you should well know how to do it, and you will tear your sword from his grasp. Hold on to his point and thrust your sword above his hand, inside his right ellbow and turn it to lever his sword from his grasp. (my translation)


see picture: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:KK_5013_20r.jpg

the trouble I have is of course, what the author presuposes me to know, that is, moving in between the swords (hasn't been described in earlier techniques either). especially since the next technique offers a counter, where it seems that moving in between the swords involves a turning maneuver, shortly showing your back to the enemy:

If he tries to move himself in between the swords then be aware as soon as he turns his back towards you. Then move both swords crosswise up and hold him tight.


picture: http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/File:KK_5013_20v.jpg

can someone explain to me how this "moving in" maneuver works?

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:23 am

I believe I've seen this done before by two of our armor researchers from Virginia Beach, and though it's hard to explain without demonstrating, I believe it's essentially a spin move designed to use the turning of your body to wrench your sword out of the other guy's grasp without losing your grip on his. The middle part of the move would look similar to the fighter on the left in the second image, but probably with the opponent's sword more parallel to your own rather than raised crosswise to counter. It would take a bit of practice to figure this out exactly and get it right, but if done correctly the other guy should get his hand sliced open if he doesn't let go.
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Postby Benedict Haefeli » Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:06 am

Hmmm, I could only picture this similiar to a dancing turn where the partners don't let go of each others hand: The hand holding the opponents sword passing above your head during the turn, and the other hand tearing ones own sword from the grip of the enemy by a strong jerk aided by the force of the turning move. That would mean that you're really screwed if the oponent doesn't let go of your sword after all, as the counter shows...

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:29 am

Benedict Haefeli wrote:Hmmm, I could only picture this similiar to a dancing turn where the partners don't let go of each others hand: The hand holding the opponents sword passing above your head during the turn, and the other hand tearing ones own sword from the grip of the enemy by a strong jerk aided by the force of the turning move. That would mean that you're really screwed if the oponent doesn't let go of your sword after all, as the counter shows...


That's a pretty good analogy, and yeah, you aren't in a good spot if you don't get your sword free, but pulling a sharp blade out of a hand, especially a bare hand as in the picture, with the force of a full-body turn is a pretty high percentage move worth taking a chance on. The masters knew that no move could be guaranteed to work every single time, and even ridiculous moves could work once in a while. Just because a move has a counter doesn't mean it's bad. The masters chose to focus on the moves that gave you the best chance of success the most often because fighting is gambling, no matter how good you are.
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Postby Benedict Haefeli » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:36 am

Allthough, the ommitance of gauntlets in the pictures is a bit strange. There is one technique specifically involving gauntlets (longsword 37), which suggests that they can't have been that uncommon (and in the picture acompanying the technique both fighters wear gauntlets, although it would only have been neccessary for one to wear them). Might it be that gauntlets in the pictures were omitted to allow for clearer drawing of hand postions?

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:00 am

Benedict Haefeli wrote:Might it be that gauntlets in the pictures were omitted to allow for clearer drawing of hand postions?


That's one possibility. The other is that the fighters chose not to wear gauntlets because it gave them a better feel for the handling of their weapons. For some people, gloves and gauntlets cause more interference than they're worth, others barely notice the difference. Some knights also gave up face protection in exchange for better vision and breathing. If such trade-offs give you extra confidence in your ability to fight well, that's often worth more than having the extra armor. It's all up to the individual.
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Postby Benedict Haefeli » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:15 am

For some people, gloves and gauntlets cause more interference than they're worth, others barely notice the difference.


That's something one can only judge if he has practical expierience, so it sounds like a reasonable explanation to someone that has none (like me). Thanks.

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Postby Tyrone Artur Budzin » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:26 pm

Very nice work Benedict! :D
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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:49 pm

Is there a translation for the pommel throwing plate?
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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:00 pm

Sorry to double post friends...I found one. :)
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