New here,got some questions

[Nebojsa Salaj Kovacevic]

Hello everyone.First of all nice to meet you.I was not able to find discussion forum so i will post here.I wanted to ask you is there any fighting club in canada if possible in vancouver.I am for many years interested in medieval fighting.I love sword&shield technique.I'm from Serbia,but now when i moved here i saw a chance to maybe start practicing some medieval fighting.Always was fascinated by swords mostly katanas but i like broadsword too as well as heavy two-handed swords.If someone know any club near by reply.Thx in advance.

[James Brazas]

It looks like there are two clubs in or near Vancouver:

http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1033322

Blood and Iron Martial Arts

info@bloodandiron.ca

Acadamie Duello

info@academieduello.com

Both of these groups are affiliated with HEMAC, but not with ARMA. HEMAC is a similar group that also studies the original fencing manuals written during the Medieval and Renaissance eras.

It seems like there aren't any ARMA groups in Canada right now.

You should know, though, that there are no surviving fencing manuals for Crusader-era Sword-and-Shield.

We have surviving Sword-and-Buckler manuals (bucklers being small steel shields, usually 1 foot wide) and we have surviving Sidesword-and-Rotella manuals (Sidesword being similar to a rapier and the Rotella being a 2 foot wide round steel shield).

There are many, many manuals for medieval swords used in both hands. They range in weight from 3 lbs. to 6 lbs. on average. So they really aren't all that heavy. They are still heavier than the one-handed swords, of coure, since most one-handed swords are under 3 lbs.

[Roger Norling]

Actually HEMA is not a group or affiliation. It simply means Historical European Martial Arts. It is a term similar, but not identical, to Renaissance Martial Arts and Western Martial Arts.
Many of us who aren't actual member of ARMA still think you guys do HEMA and the terms MARE and RMA hasn't really caught on much outside of ARMA...

Academie Duello is a very big club with near 400 members, if I remember correctly. It is run by Devon Boorman. Blood & Iron is run by Lee Smith.

You can find a few Canadian clubs here: http://www.hroarr.com/organisations-and-clubs/north-america/

[Stacy Clifford]

Actually HEMA is not a group or affiliation. It simply means Historical European Martial Arts. It is a term similar, but not identical, to Renaissance Martial Arts and Western Martial Arts.
Many of us who aren't actual member of ARMA still think you guys do HEMA and the terms MARE and RMA hasn't really caught on much outside of ARMA...

We do do HEMA, but that is a broad term and RMA or MARE is a subset of that. Historical European Martial Arts can refer to anything from ancient Greek pankration on up to bartitsu and beyond. Besides RMA being literally part of our name, our organization has specifically defined our period of study as roughly 1300-1650 A.D. (or C.E., if you prefer) for at least as long as I've been a member, which is 13 years now. There's nothing wrong with using broader terms, but why say you sell "German automobiles" if you really only sell Mercedes-Benz? Both are true, we just choose to be more specific because it fits our organizational charter.

[Stacy Clifford]

Hello everyone.First of all nice to meet you.I was not able to find discussion forum so i will post here.I wanted to ask you is there any fighting club in canada if possible in vancouver.I am for many years interested in medieval fighting.I love sword&shield technique.I'm from Serbia,but now when i moved here i saw a chance to maybe start practicing some medieval fighting.Always was fascinated by swords mostly katanas but i like broadsword too as well as heavy two-handed swords.If someone know any club near by reply.Thx in advance.

I'm not sure what Craig Peters is doing these days, but he's a good fellow from British Columbia who usually had a shortage of study partners. I haven't heard from him in a long time, but if you find him online he's worth getting in touch with.

[John Farthing]

I believe Craig is currently residing in Kowloon, Hong Kong.

[Stacy Clifford]

Ah, well never mind then.

[Roger Norling]

Actually HEMA is not a group or affiliation. It simply means Historical European Martial Arts. It is a term similar, but not identical, to Renaissance Martial Arts and Western Martial Arts.
Many of us who aren't actual member of ARMA still think you guys do HEMA and the terms MARE and RMA hasn't really caught on much outside of ARMA...

We do do HEMA, but that is a broad term and RMA or MARE is a subset of that. Historical European Martial Arts can refer to anything from ancient Greek pankration on up to bartitsu and beyond. Besides RMA being literally part of our name, our organization has specifically defined our period of study as roughly 1300-1650 A.D. (or C.E., if you prefer) for at least as long as I've been a member, which is 13 years now. There's nothing wrong with using broader terms, but why say you sell "German automobiles" if you really only sell Mercedes-Benz? Both are true, we just choose to be more specific because it fits our organizational charter.

I know. And I understand why you prefer the term, especially since RMA is part of ARMA's name.

But just for the sake of discussion: ARMA as a whole often studies medieval combat too, don't you? I.33? Hs.3227a? And Liechtenauer wasn't really born in the Renaissance, particularly not the German Renaissance.

Even the mid 15th century is often counted as part of the Late Middle Ages, which puts several other treatises and fencing masters into that period, like Codex Wallerstein, Wilhalm, parts of Talhofer, the Gladiatoria books, Jeu de la Hache, Codex 11093 and the MS Harley 3542.

This is why I prefer to keep it simple calling it HEMA. RMA or MARE excludes too much, not least Liechtenauer himself.

Oh the trickiness of terminology...

Completely besides the topic of course and my apologies for that!

[John Farthing]

For a more concise explanation please see the following page (you'll want to scroll down to the heading 'Why ARMA?')

http://www.thearma.org/about.htm

[Roger Norling]

Thanks John. It's a good read!

I don't quite agree with it though, as the Renaissance is more of a movement, or at least a spread of mental and intellectual change of ideas, taking root in different parts of Europe at different times. Italy is first, but it takes quite a bit of time to take hold in Germany and even more so in Scandinavia, where it doesn't spread properly until some time in the 1500s.

Not to mention that it is very different to see seeds of the Renaissance in a few individual authors compared to it being a general way of thinking for a larger part of society in the different regions. There was still quite a bit of conservatism going on...

So I think I will stick with Historical Fencing or HEMA until we find a better term. I respect your choice though.

Anyhow, this was off-topic and I don't want to steal the thread. There are two well-known clubs in Vancouver, so the original question is hopefully answered satisfyingly.

[John Farthing]

True, but it's not just about the Renaissance (i.e. - Historical time period), but A Renaissance, insofar as the word quite literally means "Rebirth". The ARMA stands at the forefront of the 'rebirth' of our Pan-European Historical and Hereditary Martial Arts.

[Nebojsa Salaj Kovacevic]

Thank you guys for information you gave me .well hope to see you in few years on some competition

[Corey Roberts]

Roger, this is how I conceptualize the various terms:


Western Martial Arts/Occidental Martial Arts
_________________________________
I
Historical European Martial Arts
__________________________
I
Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe


HEMA evokes an even broader concept than MARE although they highly overlap, and MARE is clearly part of HEMA. HEMA would include things that MARE does not. For instance, Bata, Glima, Pankration, English Bareknuckle Boxing and other arts of a similar nature could all be grouped under HEMA, but not MARE/RMA. The earliest treatise we have such as I:33 are really at the beginning and middle of the last century of the Medieval period in it's accepted definition. So although the earliest of our treatise do classify as Medieval, most of them do not. The majority of the German treatise were written in a time frame that is considered after the Medieval period proper, and all of the Italian material as well.

nur meine zwei Pfennige.

[Roger Norling]

Corey, I do understand the differentiation, but I don't agree about the time frame for Middle Ages and the Renaissance, and because of that I find that ARMA also focuses quite a bit on medieval treatises too.

Two of the most important factors in the roots of the Renaissance are the printing of books and the wars of religions (Islam, Catholicism & Protestantism). The printing press isn't really operational until 1450 and this marks an important change for the whole society. And just three years later we have the very important Fall of Constantinopel where the Ottoman Turks struck a very hard blow against Christiandom and after which fleeing Greek Scholars brought a treasure of ancient Greek texts that had until then been forgotten by the western world. This is where the Middle Ages is most commonly seen as ending and the Renaissance beginning, although some extend it to as late as ca 1520.

And as previously mentioned, when this happens differs for different regions (and also different cultural expressions like Art, Music & Architecture). The Renaissance as a movement spread rather slowly. For sure we see traces of it even in the High Middle Ages, particularly with individual thinkers, but we need to look at when these ideas are commonly shared within the more influential of the groups we study.

http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/late-middle-ages-timeline.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Middle_Ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Late_Middle_Ages

So, for the region we study with these masters of KdF, the Renaissance doesn't take root until the mid 1400s, and a term like Renaissance Martial Arts in fact excludes both I.33, Liechtenauer himself and many important early treatises, like Codex Wallerstein, Hs.3227a, Jörg Wilhalm, Ringeck, Danzig and Talhoffer and a few more.

Most of these would be hard to classify as men of the Renaissance. Personally, I even believe that the Marxbrüder were a very conservative bunch of hardcore traditionalists, not very keen on the whole Renaissance Reformation ideas, while the Freyfechter were very much children of the Renaissance.

It is an interesting topic though. It would be really interesting to see exactly when we see the first masters refer back to the Romans and the Greeks. I know a few, but those are well into the 1500s already. And referring to Aristotle doesn't really count as the medieval authors did that a lot. It is part of medieval, not renaissance philosophy.

[Corey Roberts]

I would say that attempting to make a strict distinction between the late-Medieval period, and the Renaissance is not really a useful distinction. If we pick out Fiore's Flos Duellatorum for instance, 1410 is quite definitely during the "Renaissance" Simply moving north doesn't change the time period we're in. So yes, many of the treatise such as I:33 and Lichtenauer were during the late Medieval period. But most of them are not. In fact nearly all of them are from the Renaissance period.

Here are some German Renaissance benchmark events:

Gutenberg invents the printing press-1440

Albrecht Dürer; Famous German Artist and exemplar of the German Renaissance, author of a Fechtbuch and member of the Marxbrüder fencing guild lives from -1471 to 1528

Martin Luther's 95 thesis posted on the wall of the church in Wittenberg-1517




I ask you how many of our German sources are before these events, all of which are considered deep in the heart of the German Renaissance?

Here are the dates of the major German sources:

MS I:33 1295 or early 1300's

Döbringer 1389

Codex Wallerstein -1470's (Front date says 1549, likely date of creation earlier)

Talhoffer 1440's through 1450's

Danzig -1452

Paulus Kal-1467

Kunst des Messerfechtens-1478

Peter Falkner-1495

Sigmund Ringeck-early 1500's

Solethurner Fechtbuch- 1504 to 1514

Goliath-1510 -1520

Albrecht Dürer Fechtbuch -1512

Leckuchner Der alten fechter-1531

Gregor Erhart -1533


Von Auerswald Ringer Kunst-1539

Paulus Hector Mair Opus- 1552

Lecküchner lebkommer- 1558

Joachim Meyer -1570

Gunterrodt- 1579

Codex Guelf-1591

J. Meyer 1600 edition-

I feel it is unnecessary to continue past 1600 .


Looking at only the major German sources, and not including the Italian sources, for whom the Renaissance period is said to have started even earlier, we see that very few of our available sources come from the Medieval period proper, although a few of them do. Does ARMA study some Medieval source works? Absolutely. Do a majority of them come from the Medieval period? Generally not. Thus I feel that the phrase Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe (MARE) refers to a specific time range falling between roughly the 1400's to the 1600's . Whereas HEMA is a more expansive term which includes the MARE specific time periods, and can be applied to all sources previous to this period and all historical fighting methodologies which follow it. Make sense?