How to defeat the spear? (and other polearms)

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Best sword to defeat Spears and Pollaxes?

Longsword
0
No votes
Longsword (using halfsword)
0
No votes
Messer or Falchion
1
14%
Rapier-and-Dagger
0
No votes
Sword-and-Buckler (arming sword)
1
14%
Sword-and-Buckler (sidesword)
0
No votes
Sidesword-and-Dagger
0
No votes
Sidesword-and-Target (Rotella)
1
14%
Two-Hand Sword/Montante
4
57%
 
Total votes: 7

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James Brazas
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How to defeat the spear? (and other polearms)

Postby James Brazas » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:00 pm

From everything I have read and talked to people about, it seems that spears and other polearms have a real advantage against swords and other shorter weapons.

Spears have great reach (they're often 8 ft. long), great leverage, and they're pretty quick and powerful as well.

Pollaxes don't have quite as much reach or speed, but they still have all the same leverage and they have the advantages of unrivaled firepower and great versatility.

I have been told that a moderately skilled pole-arm user is usually on equal footing with an expert swordsman.

This raises the question of how can a swordsman defeat someone with a spear or pollaxe?

What are your thoughts?

What swords would be most effective?

What techniques or tactics would be most effective?

How would armor come into play? Would certain weapons or techniques be especially effective or ineffective in armored combat vs. unarmored comat?

I am assuming that the tactics and techniques would all be about what way works best to safely close the distance.

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Postby James Brazas » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:25 pm

It seems like Two-Hand sword is the preferred option according to the poll so far.

That makes sense. Two-Handers have the most reach, the most leverage, lots of firepower, and they typically have long cross-guards and sometimes complex guards for hand protection and binding. So I can see why the Two-Hand sword would be favored.

How would the longsword, sword-and-buckler, sidesword, etc. compare? It would be good to get a feel for what sorts of weapons are better or worse against polearms.

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Re: How to defeat the spear? (and other polearms)

Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:37 pm

James Brazas wrote:I have been told that a moderately skilled pole-arm user is usually on equal footing with an expert swordsman


Who told you that? It's true that polearms are grossly under-represented in most European martial art groups/clubs today, so sword-oriented students are less likely to have experience in facing a polearm user while the polearm blokes, on the contrary, will be more experienced in facing swords. This creates a sampling bias in favour of the polearm--much in the same way that the numerical prevalence of right-handed fencers gives left-handed ones an advantage in modern sport fencing. Back in the medieval and Renaissance times, many students (especially those from the knightly and noble social classes) would probably have had to learn the use of both swords and polearms, which is likely to have given them a better idea of how to face polearms with the sword.


This raises the question of how can a swordsman defeat someone with a spear or pollaxe?

What are your thoughts?


As the polearms guy in the local club back when it was still active, I can tell you that I always felt a certain measure of anxiety about my hands since the spear, the pike, and the poleaxe don't have the prominent cross of a contemporary sword, which means that many manoeuvres that would be commonplace with the sword may put the hands at considerable danger when performed with a polearm instead. A perceptive swordsman ought to be able to exploit this anxiety over the hands by employing feints to threaten the hands before moving in to strike a more important target.

(On the other hand, a polearm user expecting earnest combat against swordsmen should really invest in some hand protection. In historical terms a gauntlet would have been a very, very good idea).


What swords would be most effective?

What techniques or tactics would be most effective?


Any sword will work if the swordsman knows how to exploit the specific advantage of the sword vis-a-vis the polearm. For example, a two-handed sword is something of a polearm in its own right, allowing the swordsman to engage a polearm-toting adversary on a more equal basis. On the other hand, a single-sword user would likely try closing into grappling distance since the shaft of a polearm is more amenable to a grab than, say, a sword blade (although by the same token a polearm user could lure a single-sword man into a grappling attempt prior to bashing him with the butt or the shaft--or using the grabbing hand to set up a lock or throw if the swordsman refuses to let go).


How would armor come into play? Would certain weapons or techniques be especially effective or ineffective in armored combat vs. unarmored comat?


This topic is too broad and complicated to be addressed in a single post (especially considering the various levels of protection available to medieval and Renaissance combatants), but in general you'd want armour on both sides of the equation--especially hand protection for polearms (I've explained why already) and leg protection for swords (because a longer polearm with a reach advantage is likely to go for the legs from beyond the range of a Scheitelhau or similar technique with the sword), not to mention head protection for both (I don't think I even need to explain the reason for this).


I am assuming that the tactics and techniques would all be about what way works best to safely close the distance.


Not really. With shorter polearms (such as the poleaxe or Paulus Hector Mair's short staff) the butt is as deadly as the point or axe/hammerhead. Getting past the point is important but the swordsman still has to be prepared to fight at all the ranges (Zufechten, Krieg, and Ringen / large, close, and grappling measure).

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Postby James Brazas » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:17 pm

OK. Thank you very much! That seems to clear a number of things up.

As to where I got the idea that spears had big advantages over swords:

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... d208ea9e98

That thread seemed to side pretty strongly in favor of polearms.

Your explanation makes sense, though. Since the vast majority of us spend the vast majority of our time fighting with and against swords (primarily longsword), we wouldn't know as much about fighting against unfamiliar polearms.

Your points about the pole-arm user's hands being vulnerable and the swordsman's legs being vulnerable make a lot of sense, too. (As does your related point about gauntlets for polearm users and greaves/cuisses for swordsmen.)

It sounds like there are a good number of viable tactics for those using the sword alone. Would the sword alone actually be better than with a buckler or dagger?

I imagine the longsword could be used similarly, correct? It would have greater leverage and firepower than the sword alone, but could still be used one-handed for a bit to allow the swordsman to grab the pole shaft.

I also like the idea of attacks to the hand. Attacks to the hands are already among the easiest to pull off even against swords, so I can see how that would work well against pole-arms (as would the feints followed by attacks to more vital areas).

OK. I can see how polearms can be used well in krieg and ringen distances, though I still get the impression that the swordsman is advised to close the distance. Am I right? I mean, at the spearman's zufechten range, the swordsman can't even land an attack due to the difference in reach. So I would assume that the swordsman has to at least close some of the distance.

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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:27 am

James Brazas wrote:It sounds like there are a good number of viable tactics for those using the sword alone. Would the sword alone actually be better than with a buckler or dagger?


Not necessarily. It has the advantage of easier grappling (no need to drop the dagger or buckler), but at the same time an empty hand doesn't work quite as well for close-range strikes and stabs. I'd pick single sword over sword-and-dagger or sword-and-buckler anytime since I'm more experienced with it but somebody who has a better grasp of those other two styles would probably prefer their favoured style.


OK. I can see how polearms can be used well in krieg and ringen distances, though I still get the impression that the swordsman is advised to close the distance. Am I right? I mean, at the spearman's zufechten range, the swordsman can't even land an attack due to the difference in reach. So I would assume that the swordsman has to at least close some of the distance.


Of course getting past the point is important. It's just that you can't assume you're safe just because you managed to get that close. On the other hand, many short polearms (such as the poleaxe or Mair's short staff) are outranged by larger specimens of the two-handed sword, so in this case it's the polearm user who stands to gain an advantage by closing in.

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:11 pm

Since a post of mine is included in that old thread on spears, let me just say that I don't necessarily disagree with anything Lafayette has said here. In general, a longer weapon has an advantage over a shorter one under two main conditions: it must retain some agility and it must have room to maneuver. An 8-foot staff can still be used in many ways once an enemy gets past the point, but an 18-foot pike very few. It's also difficult to turn the butt end of a spear around if you're surrounded by thousands of men packed shoulder to shoulder, or invading the narrow labyrinth of a city like Toledo, Spain. As Mr. Curtis pointed out with the zweihander vs. the pollaxe, a sword can have the length advantage over a polearm, or the disadvantage in situations like I just described. No matter what you have, the guy with the shorter weapon still has to get inside the range of the longer, which can be difficult, and the advantage is still not guaranteed once he does, though the odds tilt in his favor.
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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:27 am

Ah, yes, that's a better way of phrasing it: closing in for the shorter weapon is more like losing the certain disadvantage rather than gaining a guaranteed advantage.

Anyway, I think I need to clarify an earlier point. I said "feints to the hand followed by an attack elsewhere" since the polearm-experienced guys I've practiced with tend to turn their paranoia about their hands' vulnerability into some fairly effective methods/techniques for protecting the hands, such that a simple attack of first intention against a polearm-wielder's hands isn't as easy to do as it may seem at first glance. A feint to the hands followed by another attack (even if this second attack also goes for the hands) tends to work better against polearm-wielders beyond a certain level of experience.

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Postby James Brazas » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:42 am

All of that makes a lot of sense.

It sounds like polearms (asuming they have longer reach than the sword) have some initial advantage, but there are plenty of ways to defeat polearms. (Closing distance, manuevering so that the polearm user can't back up, grabbing the pole, strikes to hands, feints to hands followed by attacks to vitals, etc.)

Do you have any weapon-specific suggestions? (i.e. techniques that work well when using particular swords, techniques that work well against particular polearms, etc.)

On a related topic, would bucklers still reliably be able to defend against cuts and thrusts from a pollaxe? I assume so, though I imagine it's very different from parrying an arming sword.

Between sword and buckler, single sword, sword and dagger, and longsword, it sounds right now like sword and buckler is the best option.

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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:03 am

James Brazas wrote:Between sword and buckler, single sword, sword and dagger, and longsword, it sounds right now like sword and buckler is the best option.


Only if you rely on the poll results! For what it's worth, I tend to read them in a very different way: out of the many active members on this forum, a fair number of whom ought to be fairly knowledgeable about the sword vs. polearm interaction, only four have answered the poll -- and I believe this is because most of the really knowledgeable folks don't really believe that it's possible to give the kind of simplistic answer demanded in the poll. The kind of sword one picks for fighting a polearm matters a great deal less than whether one knows how to exploit its advantages and cover its disadvantages vis-a-vis the polearm in question.

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Postby James Brazas » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:46 am

Fair enough. Most things are too complicated to adequately rank or measure in lists. I get that.

I was also referencing the older thread that I linked to earlier in this thread. There, they were debating on whether it was easier to defeat a polearm with a longsword or sword and buckler.

I understand your point that knowing the opponent's weapon (spear, pollaxe, etc.) is more important than what sword you choose.

I just figured that maybe certain sword designs or off-hand weapons might have fewer disadvantages to cover for or more advantages to exploit relative to polearms. So, even if the difference is not significant, there might be a marginal advantage to choosing one weapon over another.

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:41 pm

Lafayette is right, it's more important to know how to exploit the other weapon's properties than what you've got in your hands. Unless you're in a dueling "choose your weapons" scenario and you go last, you don't get to pick which weapon to use against your opponent very often. It is much more useful (and gratifying) to take the mindset that "I will learn to face all comers with whatever I have at hand." I may not like what the other guy is carrying, but if I'm willing to deal with it and have a good understanding of my principles, then I'm dangerous to him, no matter what he has or I have. That is the entire point of having an Art of Defence. Don't be a dangerous fighter with _____. Just be a dangerous fighter, period.
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Postby James Brazas » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:48 am

Agreed. Being a skilled warrior is better than being skilled with only one weapon or in only one situation.

It sounds like my question may be unanswerable due to human factors like experience, dexterity, strength, etc.

For what it's worth, when I asked the question, I was thinking of something similar to what George Silver gave his readers.

Silver ranked the weapons as follows:

"Short Sword" (Sidesword, Rappier, etc.) > Rapier

Sword-and-Dagger > Single Sword

Sword-and-Target > Sword-and-Dagger

Sword-and-Buckler > Sword-and-Target

Two-Hand Sword (longsword?) > Sword-and-Buckler

Pollaxe/Halberd > Two-Hand Sword (longsword?)

Spear/Forest Bill > Pollaxe/Halberd

So he felt comfortable ranking them, though he didn't discuss much what weapons would stand the best chance of defeating a weapon in a higher "tier."

It seems to me like Silver's reasoning was mostly based on reach, coverage, and suitability for warfare.

Interestingly, there is one point were he does discuss how to defeat polearms. Namely, this is how to defeat pikes and other weapons longer than "perfect length." Such long weapons could be outmaneuvered by sword-and-buckler or sword-and-dagger according to him. But sword vs. pike is very different from sword vs. spear/pollaxe.

He also mentions that, in tight quarters and dense battles, that he recommends the longsword, sword-and-target, or pollaxe.

But I understand that it might not be possible to rank each individual weapon's advantages/disadvantages against all the others.
Last edited by James Brazas on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:55 am

As long as you control for conditions (open field, no obstacles, good weather, opponents of equal skill, etc.), you can rank anything (maybe we're all bookies at heart), and Silver's ranking is as good as any. Just keep in mind that any change in conditions also changes the odds.
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Postby James Brazas » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:03 pm

OK, thanks!

I guess, assuming Silver's ranking system is accurate, the Two-Hand Sword would work the best against polearms (highest on the list).

This makes sense with the reach, leverage, coverage, and firepower considerations discussed above. It also makes sense since the two-hander was designed for dealing with pike formation (which are polearms, afterall).

Then, following his ranking system, the longsword or sword-and-buckler would probably be the next best things. He mentions the sword-and-buckler as being particularly good at closing the distance with polearms beyond "perfect length."

The sword-and-target might also be an option (ranked lower overall than sword-and-buckler, but said to be better for dealing with dense battles).

Of course, all that does is eliminate those weapon styles rarely ever seen on the battlefield anyway(civilian rapiers, sword-and-dagger, etc.)

But, like y'all said, among those acceptable styles, it would all probably depend on the training, experience, and skill of the people involved more than on which sword style they used.

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Postby Stacy Clifford » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:22 pm

Silver and Swetnam both have brief discussions on sword & dagger vs. quarterstaff, though they disagree a bit on the details.

Overall, a good fighter is one who can consistently win when the odds would be against him under standard conditions (like facing a "superior" weapon).
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