Longsword - Conditions for gripping the pommel certain ways?

[Bart Bartley II]

When I was reading through the Codex Döbringer for the first time, I came across a passage which read as follows:

"Know also that a good fencer should before all things know his sword and be able to grip it well with both hands, between the cross guard and the pommel since you will then be safer than if you did grip it with one hand on the pommel. And you will also strike harder and truer, with the pommel swinging itself and turning in the strike you will strike harder than if you were holding the pommel. When you pull the pommel in the strike you will not come as perfect or as strongly. For the sword is like a scale, if a sword is large and heavy then the pommel must also be large and heavy to balance it like a scale."

Up until this point, I had mostly practiced with my hand on the pommel, but I wanted to know more on this subject in hopes of understanding if one method of gripping the sword is superior, or if they each have different utilities to consider?

Are there any masters which have been known to teach differently in regards to how the pommel is gripped versus what is written in the Döbringer?

[James Brazas]

I'm not aware of any other manuals that specifically address how to grip or not grip the pommel. Maybe someone else here would know about that.

I asked someone about this very question some time ago. Their answer was that it probably had to deal with the length of sword grips and the types of pommels in Dobringer's day. Later pommels seem to be better for gripping.

The illustrations in the manuals seem to agree with that theory.

Hans Talhoffer's manual shows a mix. Some illustrations show the longswordsmen gripping their pommels and some don't. Whether the longswordsmen gripped their pommels or not seems to depend on the technique. Gripping the pommel seems to be more common than not amongst the Tahoffer illustrations. (This was in 1459).

Paulus Hector Mair's manual shows the longswordsmen almost always gripping their pommels. (This was at some point before 1579.)

So it seems to depend in part on the hilt design of the longsword in question and in part on the technique in question. I'm sure you'll find in your own practice that certain gripping methods seem more natural and advantageous in certain situations.

You should also remember that unlike many Asian blades (or many later European blades for that matter), the longsword is a sword that is designed with multiple gripping options in mind. The way you grip a longsword during an oberhau (overhead cut) is very different from how you grip it during a zwerchau (crossing cut), which in turn is very different from how you grip it while half-swording or performing a mordschlag (murder-stroke).

As a side note, be sure to have a firm grip, but definitely not a tight grip. I know when I first started longsword, I wore out my wrists and forearms a lot because I had such an iron grip on my sword's hilt. Having a grip that is firm enough to hold on, but not tight, will help avoid unnecessary shock to the hands and arms from your own blows and it will allow you to more freely flow from one technique to another (and from one gripping method to another). You may have already figured that out yourself, but I figured I would offer the advice anyway.

[Bart Bartley II]

Thank you for the insight. It would make sense that the nature of pommels would be different at the time of the manuscript's writing (I would assume that perhaps many of them were wheel pommels).

Also,

As a side note, be sure to have a firm grip, but definitely not a tight grip. I know when I first started longsword, I wore out my wrists and forearms a lot because I had such an iron grip on my sword's hilt. Having a grip that is firm enough to hold on, but not tight, will help avoid unnecessary shock to the hands and arms from your own blows and it will allow you to more freely flow from one technique to another (and from one gripping method to another). You may have already figured that out yourself, but I figured I would offer the advice anyway.

This is a good piece of wisdom. I did quickly learn this lesson myself as I noticed how quickly I was tiring out as I practiced on the pell. My grip has gradually improved since.

[James Brazas]

You're welcome!

Yes, wheel pommels were more common in Dobringer's day. Later on, we see more spherical pommels, scent stopper pommels, fishtail pommels, etc.

Here's something else a more senior swordsman taught me that I found very useful regarding how to grip the hilt - specifically regarding edge alignment.

Edge alignment, of course, is very important when you cut. If you align your edge well with the target, you can cut very well. If your edge alignment is poor, you will cut poorly or not at all.

He said to use the crossguard to align your blade. Line up the back cross guard (short/false edge side) with the radius and ulna in your forearm. Line up the front cross guard (long/true edge side) with the second knuckles of your fingers (not the knuckles you punch with, but the ones after that). This is assuming you're using the sort of grip used for normal oberhau, unterhau, etc.

That helped me a lot, so I thought I should pass it along.

[John Farthing]

Filippo Vadi tells us in around 1482 that the pommel should be round to fit the hand. A later Master, (Marozzo? Manciolino? for some reason I can never seem to remember which) tells us to "grip the pommel in the manner which is most commodious".

[LafayetteCCurtis]

This has been discussed before on several occasions. Of course, it's not wrong to bring the topic up once more, but I think I should link to these older discussions so that those new to the issue would not miss the valuable insights that have been aired beforehand.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.9736.html

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic. ... f7e671c279