In modern close-range combat, are swords better than knives?

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

SDWakefield
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:43 pm

In modern close-range combat, are swords better than knives?

Postby SDWakefield » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:27 pm

In terms of sheer combat effectiveness, nothing else. That is, assuming carrying size and survival utility aren't a factor. I'm solely interested in the martial arts of the question.

Would a sword, or possibly a large knife, be more effective than a regular knife here? It seems the range and versatility of the sword would be very advantageous.

Both soldiers would be wearing current stab-resistant body armor and a helmet and trained in unarmed/knife/sword combat.

Thanks!

User avatar
James Brazas
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:29 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Postby James Brazas » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:18 pm

This is somewhat outside the scope of the forum, but I think I could venture an opinion.

Am I correct in assuming this is modern-day combat and everyone has modern combat rifles? (M-16, M-4, Ak-47, etc.)

That would change the analysis.

All things being equal, swords are always better than knives.

Reach: A modern combat knife generally has a blade of 1 foot or less. Swords ranged between having 2 foot blades up to 4 foot blades. So the sword has a definite reach advantage over the knife.

Coverage: Swords have much greater hand protection. Modern combat knives rarely have much of a handguard, whereas swords ranged from having a long crossguard to complex hilts protecting the entire hand. The crossguard also has the advantage of being able to trap and manipulate the opponent's blade - which is hugely important.

Power: Swords typically have much more firepower as well. A good cutting sword can sever an unarmored head or limb with ease. A good thrusting sword can easily penetrate modern armor (it was designed to penetrate steel "chain" maille in a single, powerful thrust, so it would have no problem with modern armors).

Leverage: Due to the size of swords, they have a definite leverage advantage over a knife and can easily push the smaller weapon aside or manipulate it as the swordsman see fit.

Speed: Knives are fast, but so are swords. A knife may seem faster and nimbler at first, but physics tells us that the longer the weapon, the faster the tip is moving (assuming the same amount of force is behind each blow). I could go into the physics if you want, but the long and short of it is that the tip of a sword is moving much faster than the tip of a knife. It must also be remembered that real swords are much lighter and nimbler than the pathetic low-end "swords" most people are familiar with today. The actual historical weapons ranged in weight from under 1 lb. (smallsword) to around 8 lbs. (the largest two-handed swords ever made). Most were 2 t0 3.5 lbs. All of them had balance points quite close to wielder's hands (3 to 5 inches being typical for Medieval/Renaissance swords). So they were very fast weapons. Since I'm assuming we're talking about one-handed swords suitable for dealing with armor, the weight is likely about 2.5 lbs.

Versatility: Knives are versatile weapons, no doubt about it. But so are swords. Swordsmanship may not be as well known today, but to learn everything there is to know about combat with even one sword style could take years or even decades. The variety of cuts, thrusts, guards, parries, pommel strikes, crossguard strikes, binding and winding techniques, hooking techniques, grappling techniques, etc. is simply staggering.

So, all things being equal, a swordsman will almost always defeat a knife-wielder.

That begs the question: why use knives when you can use swords?

Here are the reasons:

1. Ease of transport: When a soldier is already carrying a rifle, a pistol, grenades, night vision, body armor, various other pieces of electronic equipment, water, etc., would he rather carry around a 3 foot sword dangling from his waist or a knife in his belt?

2. Limited usefulness of melee weapons: Usually, a modern soldier patrolling around has a rifle at the ready. That rifle will enable him to fire on virtually any target that he sees (except tanks, jets, etc.). He has no use for a sword or anything like that at distance. Why bother running at someone with a sword when you can just shoot him? So the only time a sword would ever be useful in modern combat is in very close quarters, such as when "house cleaning" (searching a building for hiding enemies), stealth missions, or when surprised by a hidden enemy who is very close by.

3. Quick draw: In such a situation, the soldier has only a split second to think. If the enemy is too close to shoot, then he has the choice of either hitting him with his rifle, stabbing with the bayonet (assuming he has one), or drawing some other weapon. If he chooses to draw another weapon better suited for melee combat (like a knife or sword), it had better be the quickest weapon to the draw possible. With training, a sword can be drawn very quickly. But due to its length, it will never be as quick to the draw as a knife. This is the same reason why medieval and renaissance knights used their dagger as their quick-draw weapon instead of their sword. Swords are better than knives, but when you absolutely have to have a weapon drawn as quickly as humanly possible, knives/daggers are quicker to the draw.

4. Bayonet: Another advantage of knives and daggers is that they can be made into bayonets. So, if you really are worried about getting into a situation where melee combat is called for, you can just turn your rifle into a short spear. A modern rifle with bayonet might not be as versatile or effective as a sword at melee combat, but you don't have to worry about drawing another weapon. Your ranged weapon is your melee weapon.

SDWakefield
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:43 pm

Postby SDWakefield » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:44 pm

Lots of helpful information there. Thanks James! This will help me in my research.

User avatar
James Brazas
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:29 pm
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Postby James Brazas » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:21 pm

You're welcome. Feel free to ask any more questions you might have.

User avatar
s_taillebois
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Colorado

Postby s_taillebois » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:38 pm

M. Brazas listed a good number of reasons for the superiority of the sword over the knife.

For a recent example there was an British officer named Churchill who took a broadsword into the Normady campaign and killed several unfortunate German's with that weapon (who were not wearing modern body protection). So there are very rare contexts of ancient European weapons being niched into a modern context.

In some areas, swords are and have been a form of home defense and every now and again are used defensibly or offensively.

The problem is more pragmatism in that being able to use a longsword, estoc, falchion and etc does take much more time to learn to be effective than a firearm.
Steven Taillebois

LafayetteCCurtis
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:00 pm

Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:06 am

Did Jack Churchill actually kill people with his sword? As far as I can remember, he's noted for carrying a sword during amphibious assault, but the only records of him killing an enemy with a medieval weapon was when he shot a German sentry (or sergeant?) with a longbow in France.

User avatar
s_taillebois
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Colorado

Postby s_taillebois » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:47 pm

LafayetteCCurtis wrote:Did Jack Churchill actually kill people with his sword? As far as I can remember, he's noted for carrying a sword during amphibious assault, but the only records of him killing an enemy with a medieval weapon was when he shot a German sentry (or sergeant?) with a longbow in France.


He probably did as at the Maaloy island raid 12/27/41as he did go into the fight using that weapon-not just in scabbard. However undue publicity on something like that would have been a propaganda boon for the German's and a problem for British propagandists. Longbows have the 'we happy few' paradigm and so would have been propagandistically useful for the British. However hacking up people with a Claymore would have given Goebbels too much to work with...

July 2005 ed WW-2 History Magazine auth. Robert Barr Smith

"He then waded ashore at the head of his men, sword in hand, and charged ahead, as one account put it, “into the thick smoke, uttering warlike cries.” Maaloy and its battery fell quickly. Churchill and his men killed or took prisoner the garrison, including two women who, as one account of the raid genteelly put it, “might be described as camp followers.” While heavy fighting continued for a while in Vaagso itself, the landing force would not be troubled by the cannon of Maaloy. Churchill’s signal to the raid commander was terse: “Maaloy battery and island captured. Casualties slight. Demolitions in progress. Churchill.”


And there are a few places here in the US where swords are coming into use as weapons for assaults. But most of these are roadside trailer weapons and the people using them are not especially aware of the traditions and training involved as a martial art.

Back to M. Wakefields original question and back to the Renn. context of this forum, another consideration would be swords and almost swords which would be carried but had other uses. Falchion's, Seaxes and etc were used for other things such as cutting stakes for protection and etc. So one consideration would be what modern implements would be equivalent. And at what point the symbolic or propagandistic value of a sword would be equivalent or like to what it was throughout the period this forum studies and well after...weapons (swords( and their form after all can have martial utility for what they mean in addition to what these can do...
Steven Taillebois

Jack Daniels
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:39 pm

Postby Jack Daniels » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:44 am

A soldier has to carry a lot of of weight,but most infantry will probably never be in a situation where they will have to stab someone.Rifles are better than swords and knives,and no matter if a soldier chooses a sword or knife he will have a firearm.

Swords can generate more power and have longer reach but if you end up in a grapple knives,depending on how small they are can still inflict damage.

If we are talking about the longsword specifiably,you should consider that if a soldier is engaging in hand to hand combat he is probably in a structure,and the ceilings in apartments or mud huts in third world countries aren't that tall,so the swords usability is hindered.

Also depending on how you carry your sword with full kit can affect the speed of the draw.

Swords are not used for a reason,they are obsolete on the modern battlefield.

User avatar
s_taillebois
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Colorado

Postby s_taillebois » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:55 am

Quite true that swords are obsolete. However in the 20th century there were cases when archiac forms of weapons were used, despite the availability of rifles.
WW-1 trench warfare would be a predominant example-for trench raids entrenchment tools were used and modified, cudgels, trench knifes (some of which look very 'daggerish' )and other very viscious weapons were made of such as barbed wire stakes and wood with nails.

These adaptations were fairly equivalent to the falchions, daggers and cudgels used in the 100 years war.

Much like our ancestors in the Rennaissance and Medieval human ingenuity and barbarity can repeat inventions.
Steven Taillebois


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.