Krumphau questions

[Mason Kirbie]

Hey guys,

First, I'm going to apologize for posting a great big wall o' text. I hope you'll bear with me.

I was in ARMA about ten or so years ago, and recently I've had my passion for historic medieval combat rekindled. I've been on the main site reading the articles and watching the videos, as well as going back and reading ye olde school fechtbuchs (notably, Dobringer and Meyer), and I've noticed that a lot of our methodologies have changed during that time, sometimes drastically so. A great many of these make sense to me, and seem to fit the manuals well (die Waage, pursuing the bind, Indes and fuhlen in all things, for example). But I'm having great difficulty understanding the new-to-me interpretation of the Krumphau.

I went on to Wiktenauer.com (and here I thought Wikipedia was bad at making me lose hours of my life! ), and read what various historical writings had to say on the subject, and compiled a list of attributes that the Krumphau has from those writings.

They are:
-You throw the point to the opponent's hands (All)
-Breaks Ochs (Von Danzig, Ringeck, Augsberger)
-Breaks oberhau (Von Danzig, Ringeck, Anon. 1500, Mair)
-Breaks unterhau (Von Danzig, Ringeck, Anon 1500)
-Must be executed with a step well to the right (or left) to execute (All)
-The Krumphau is cut OVER the opponent's hilt/ hands (Anon. 1389, Von Danzig)
-Executed with the long edge with crossed hands when thrown from the right (Von Danzig, Ringeck, Meyer)
-May be thrown from Schrankhut (Von Danzig, Ringeck)
-Should strike with the flat if you hit the blade, and stay strong in the bind (Anon. 1389)
-Should strike TO the opponent's flats (Liechtenauer)
-Should not strike too short (Liechtenauer, Anon. 1389)
-Executed with the short edge when thrown from the left (Von Danzig, Mair, Sutor)
-Permits thrust to face/ chest (Von Danzig, Ringeck, Anon 1500(?), Syber)
-Permits winding when thrown against his strike (Von Danzig, Ringeck, Anon. 1500, Syber, Wurttemburg(?))
-Permits Durchwechsel (Anon. 1389, Von Danzig, Ringeck, Syber, Meyer)
-Fast follow-up cut with the short edge to opponent's head (Ringeck, Syber(?), Mair)
-If Krumphau is thrown against you, stay strong in bind and thrust to chest (Ringeck)
-May be thrown from Alber (Anon. 1500)
-Krumphau thrown against the right side of opponent (Mair)
-Krumphau thrown against the left side of opponent (Meyer)
-May be thrown from Zornhut (Meyer)
-May be thrown from Nebenhut (Meyer)

Now, either the meisters themselves are somewhat conflicted on the nature and application of the Krumphau, given that there is some seemingly contradictory attributes, or it's describing a very specific action. Furthermore, I see how this new-to-me interpretation lines up with a number of listed attributes, in that it does break Ochs/ oberhaus, it's executed with the long edge with crossed hands when thrown from the right, or else with the short edge when thrown from the left, it strikes to the flat of the opponent's blade, it may permit a thrust to the chest (depending on range), and it can be thrown from all the above mentioned guards. What I'm failing to see is how it accomplishes the two points on which ALL the meisters agree: that it's thrown to the opponent's hands, and that it must be executed off-line. Furthermore, many meisters agree that all the cuts, and more specifically, the master cuts, are thrown to the man and not his sword.

Maybe I'm overthinking it. Maybe I'm missing something blatantly obvious. Maybe someone just needs to pound it into my skull with a waster. As it stands, though, I'm completely stumped.

TOO LONG; DIDN'T READ

How the heck do I throw the durn thing???

[Curtis Rochelle]

Hi Mason,

Excellent question. The Krumphaw is, as you've noticed, rather tricky to pin down. Back when I started, probably a little after you left, most people I ran into were doing some form of the side-to-side "windshield wiper" krump, or a simple rising cut. Neither of these really work exactly as the sources describe. Our local group spent a lot of practice time trying to make sense of it before the new curriculum came out.

Just in case you you haven't watched this video, it gives a pretty thorough description of how we interpret the Krumphaw: https://youtu.be/cyqFaS-7xJA?list=PL-4Z ... AsZLLhTEAi This is pretty much how my study group has been using the Krumphaw since we saw John Clements demonstrate it at the 2011 International Gathering.

I think this interpretation of the Krumphau much easier to demonstrate in person than it is to explain. In my personal experience, you can easily get lost looking at the text unless you combine a close study of it with a rigorous physical interpretation, against an active, resisting opponent.

In regards to your specific questions: It is quite possible to hit the hands with our interpretation of the Krumphaw, either from the from a bind or from Zufechten. (Happens to me much more often than I'd like.) Also, there really isn't anything in the ARMA interpretation that would prevent you from stepping offline with the cut. (In fact, it's generally a good idea in my experience.) I think a key point in understanding all this is that the Krumphaw can have a variety of uses and targets, depending on the situation. Since you can throw the cut from either side, there are multiple possibilities.

Anyway, I hope that helps. I noticed your forum signature lists Dallas/Fort Worth as your location. If you are still in the area and looking at getting back into ARMA, you might want to join us at either the Dallas or the Denton study group, both of which meet on Sundays. There are many people in both groups who could probably answer your questions in person better than I can here. You can check the Facebook pages for practice times, etc:

https://www.facebook.com/arma.denton
https://www.facebook.com/arma.dallas

[Mason Kirbie]

Hey Curtis,

Thanks for the reply. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was ever going to respond. Does my post smell funny, or something?

I feel like I kinda get it, and kinda still don't have a clue. I guess I'll just have to get one of you guys to pound it into my skull with a waster one of these days. "Was sehrt, das lehrt," after all.