Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

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JeanryChandler
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Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby JeanryChandler » Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:07 pm

Just on the off-chance that anyone is interested in the saga of a
tiny group of sparring enthusiasts groping their way toward legitimacy
as a martial arts group, I've written up this descriptions of the
tribulations of what is currently called the "slum fu stompers"

I was part of an old sparring group in New Orleans which did stick and
padded club sparring from the mid 1980's until the mid 90's. We did
full contact, full force sparring with a mixture of wood, metal, and
pvc weapons (though none with edge geometry) wearing helmets and
light sports pads or other light "armor". We had almost no rules.

As far as we knew we were the only people who did what we called then
"sham battles". There were some local SCA groups active in the nearby
suburbs but our encounters with them were not particularly friendly.
When we did spar with them and beat them (almost always), they would
tell us "good kill man, but way too freestyle" or "too much kinetic energy
on that one pal!" "Or that worked, this time, but you did it wrong!"
Once we even got in a brawl with some of them at a Rennaisance fair in
the nearby wretched suburb of Kenner when they tried to prevent us from
sparring. Generally they considered us 'thugs' or 'punks' (most of our
group were punk rockers) and a lot our group members felt that they
were 'geeks' and overly obsessed with phony rules, a bureaucrtaic
culture, and a really wierdly upbeat slant on medieval history (some
members of our group wanted to start a "Dark Ages" fair to rival the
Rennaisance festivals but it never took off the ground...)

Our sparring group peaked in activity in the late 80's, but began to
dwindle in the 90's as a lot of members of our group fled the local
recession and crime wave in New Orleans at that time, and it pretty
much broke up when I moved out of town in 1993. But I always kept a
few weapons in the closet and when members of the old group were around,
or anyone with an interest in sparring (rare!) we would break out the
weapons and go a few rounds.

When Martial Arts of Rennaisance Europe came out, it generated a lot
of interest among my old group of friends. We discussed it on the phone
and on the internet. We were also interested in what was then called
HACA and in John Clements whole sparring - intensive approach which
seemed very refreshing compared to Eastern Martial Arts groups, sport
fencing, and the SCA. When I moved back to New Orleans in 1999, I got
together with a couple of other people from the old group who were in
town, and we started sparring more regularly and trying out some of the
techniques we could decifer from that book and from short translated
bits we found around the internet.

In 2001 I met some former LARP and SCA people, and we sparred with
them with some mixed results, but we learned all about that whole
phenomenon a lot more, especially LARP which I had never even heard of
and was a lot bigger than I'd imagined.

By the end of 2002 we had started a small informal sparring group
with some old guys from my "slum fu stompers", some former LARP and
SCA folks, a couple trained in Eastern Martial Arts, and a few new
people. The core of the group was me and one other guy with a
background in LARP. We would spar every sunday, sometimes just the
two of us, sometimes with as many as seven or eight people.

At first there were a some difficulties. The biggest problem was a
lack of a budget. New Orleans has a very depressed economy, people
live here because they enjoy living here, but it's a lousy place for a
career. Basically it's third world, you probably earn 40% in New
Orleans what you would anywhere else. I personally took a huge
pay cut to move back here, but what can I say, (New Orleans Jingoism on)
I hate wasteland suburbs strip malls and and industrial parks, I'd rather
live in a real city with some history no matter how depressed the economy.
(/New Orleans Jingoism off>)

Anwyay, a lot of our group are working class guys in their late 20's to
mid 30's, with kids, mortgages etc., in this economy there simply isn't
a lot of extra money for hobbies of any kind. In fact one of the ways
I lured people into the group was pointing out that it was cheaper way
to get exercise than going to the gym!

So the budget was a problem, we could barely afford enough helmets and
weapons for everybody. There were also cultural and personality
conflicts. The LARP people had a hard time getting used to full force,
full contact sparring, and were especially unused to head-shots. It
really was amazing to see how hard it was for even some very skilled
fighters among them to learn to protect their head and to strike at
their opponents head, they were worse than rank amateurs in this sense.
Certainly an object lesson in how bad, unrealistic 'training' can
actually mentally cripple you.

We also didn't have an indoor practice area. We did our practice in a
wonderful park where there was a roofed structure (a fantastic fake
greek temple made of concrete, wonderful background) but it was somewhat
exposed on frequent rainy days, and as summer approached, the heat and
humidity were just too much for a lot of people.

On the other hand, the combination of the skill and experience of the
'old salts' and the innovative "new" tricks and techniques we gleaned
from the Fechtbooks (a lot which I printed out from the ARMA site)
made the sessions interesting and fun to watch and participate in,
and gradually more and more people got interested and started to show
up, and a positive word of mouth buzz spread around town about the
activity ("sham battles" still had a certain amount of notoriety).

Finally the summer heat and the cultural conflicts however, combined
with the budgetary strain especially as more people got involved than
we had equipment for, finally led to a decision to halt practice for
the rest of the summer.

One of the things we debated about was how to make new weapons. My
partner Jeff, the LARP guy, surprisingly wanted to make our weapons
based on the ARMA / HACA method. Our weapons were already counterwighted
and much heavier than traditinonal boffers, but we all were interested
in the idea of edge geometry especially. Unfortunately, we did not
have the money to buy the materials needed, especially the special
foam that y'all use. Significantly, Jeff himself hadn't put up any
money or made many of the weapons. He ended up leaving the group
shortly after this debate.

We also talked about possibly forming an ARMA group, and some other
guys wanted to start an SCA faction, as a peasant mob, a bandit gang,
or a group of anti-aristocratic Swiss Mercenaries. Fact was we lacked
the budget for joining either group! Personally I really didn't want
to get involved in the SCA. Everyone also wanted to acquire more of
the fechtbuchks, more and better equipment especially helmets, and
more different types of weapons.

Clearly the budget was a big problem, so in our last meeting, we
resolved to A) find a way to raise some money, and B) purchase more
fechtbooks, C) aquire more and better gear, and D) try to locate an
indoor training facility, and E) figure out the best types of weapons
to use. We decided to start the group up again in October, as the
fall (hopefully) began to improve the climate.

Faced with this crisis, I decided to kill two birds with one stone.
I started experimenting with new materials, including mouse pads
and camping pads, and made some new weapons. For a lark, I put a
couple of my older ones on Ebay to see if I could raise money to buy
some new materials. To my amazement, I sold two weapons. I got
some more materials, and soon established a new basic method.

My new weapons started selling regularly on Ebay and I set up a
website. As I sold more swords I bought some books from Chivalry
Press and four copies of John Clements Medieval Combat book which
I passed around to some of the other members of my group. The
latter in particular was incredibly useful and really amazing
(and will be the subject of a review I'm doing which I'll post a
link to here)

The weapons I make wouldn't be ARMA legal, but I think they are very
good. I'd like to send one to John to evaluate. I'm making them with
pvc pipe, a large carriage bolt for counterbalance, spiral wrapping the
core with electrical tape to reach the right weight and to improve
stiffness, and three layers of blue foam camping pads. I find that
if I adjust the thickness of the pvc sufficiently, the weapons don't
'whip' at all. My arming swords and shorter long swords (44" and under)
are very good and don't flex at all. I'm still tinkering with the
larger weapons (I don't sell many of the larger ones on ebay because
they are very expensive to ship over 45") but I think with larger core
sizes and possibly, heavier guage (Sch 80) pvc I can keep them
realistic without resorting to aluminum or wood stiffeners.

At any rate, I've now got a small business established of selling
sparring weapons on Ebay and through my website, and I may soon become
the main supplier for a couple of small fencing schools. I'm looking
into expanding into shields for Roman Reenactors and crossbows, among
other things. The bottom line: now we have a budget.

As long as this trend keeps up, we should have a full library of
fechtbuchs and sparring equipment by the time we start up again in the
fall. I'm particularly looking forward to the I33 translation coming
out. I've been buying old Lacrosse helmets and sports pads to replace
our old 'home made' composite helmets and light armor made of pieces
of this and that, and I now have a fantastic arsenal of padded weapons.

There is a lot of excitement about the new weapons, and a steady buzz of
discussion, reading, and activity from the springs now somewhat infamous
sparring sessions. Based on the people I've been talking to, we should
have about ten regular members, of which four including myself (with all
due humilty) are hard core "old salts" from the original group who are
extremely good fighters. Two of these guys, Eric and Damen, may also be
entering martial arts competitions during the winter which is another thing
we'll have to pay for from the budget.

There are also fourteen other people who are interested but who's
schedueles only permit intermittant attendance, such as people who live
out of town but in neighboring states only a few hours drive away, who
sometimes come in on weekends. Among these are another 6 of the
"old salts". I expect a lot of these people will get more involved as
they participate in a few sessions. That was the trend in the spring
anyway.

When we restart, I'm going to try to use my influence try to steer
the group toward a membership in ARMA. We have checked out several of
the other fencing schools around the country but I think ARMA has the
most genuinely open interest in histrory and the most real drive to
learn and advance the 'cause' of Western Martial Arts, as opposed to
just making money or acting important.

Some of the the other fencing schools seem to be really snotty, and to
be trying to do WMA the way EMA used to be done. After sparring for 20
years I'm not going to sit there and have some guy who can't beat me in a
sword fight or a fist fight put me through tedious katas for several
high dues paying months before he will even let me touch a waster.

I personally have a feeling the real fechschules were a lot more open,
rowdy, and sparring oriented, more like the way we do it, or the way
ARMA does it, than they were like EMA. We all admire ARMA's emphasis
on sparring above everything else. I mean, I understand the need for
discipline and for thigns like learning footwork, guards, and stances and
the rest of it, but if you don't regularly put it to the test, you aren't
going to be doing it right in the long run. Anyway, I want to join ARMA
and will be doing so personally probably by the end of the month. Some
of the older salts still have to be convinced about changing any of the
ways we do things, but the fechtbooks continue to impress and the
various resources of the ARMA website have been so valuable to research
in the field.

Anyway, thats the goal to join ARMA by winter either as a group, or at
least as individuals, and after that, to start buying wasters, then
some steel weapons and some real steel armor. I'll have to sell a hell
of a lot of swords to get that together though!

Thats about it at this point. Advice and commentary would be
appreciated.

JR
"We can't all be saints"
John Dillinger

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:18 pm

Hi
That’s an interesting tale, thanks for sharing it with us.
I sympathize and relate, trust me. I've been there myself.
We'd be happy to have you all be a part. You ceratinly have the attitude. Contact me by email.

I travel to NOLA occasionally, my wife is from there; perhaps we can arrange something in your area soon.

Good luck, please keep in touch.

JC

p.s.
If I had a dollar for every time I've heard ..."that worked, this time, but you did it wrong!"

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Mike Cartier
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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby Mike Cartier » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:48 am

cool story thanks for sharing, keep the faith.

Nice to see some other old punk rockers doing this stuff, i thought we were all dead by now.
Got a website or a link to some of your paddeds on ebay.

Mike
ARMA-SFL.com
Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
www.freifechter.com

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Jamie Fellrath
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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby Jamie Fellrath » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:46 am

Jeanry -

Great story... definitely goes to show that when there's a will, there's a way.

I especially like the part about using mouse pads for foam on padded swords. If anyone ever comes up with a WMA use for all those AOL CD-ROMs I get in the mail, I'd love to hear it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jamie Fellrath

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JeanryChandler
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Re: Slum Fu stompers - swords list

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:27 am

Yeah, that was another thing I wanted to bring up to John some time, a demographic he missed in the otherwise super analysis of who does sword-fighting around the country that he wrote a few years back. There is a copy of that on the net somewhere, but he left out the sub-culture groups, who I'm willing to be were probably some of the most hard- core groups around the country. I personally encountered and verified the existance of three other groups of old punk rockers around the country who did sparring just like my group did. One group of anarchist punks in Orange County California was even more hard core than us, they used to brawl against skinheads on a fairly regular basis with bats and pipes and stuff, for real. Scary place, by the way, Southern California. (Hated it!)

As for my swords, I don't want to violate list policy on advertising, so I'll meet you half way. Hopefully this way I wont get in trouble.

Try this link here:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/Weapons3.htm

...and you can see all the weapons. Email me privately and I'll send you another link with the pricelists and stuff. I just sold the last one I had on Ebay I think, but I'll be putting two more up this afternoon.

Btw., love the office space GIF. Not to sound like Joe Fan but thats one of my all-time favorite movies. "ummm... Yeah... Lumbergh here... just wanted to let you know, this isn't a half day or anything...."

JR
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:30 am

Thanks for replying. You might remember me, I posted some mpegs here last year of me and my former friend Jeff sparring in my back - yard. Interesting that your wife is from New Orleans! I will email tonight off - line, it would be fantastic to be able to set up some kind of ARMA event here in the Fall or Winter maybe... I'll have to start extra early whipping all my friends into shape.

JR
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:38 am

You would be surprised how useful mousepads are. They make good stiff padding for the 'flat' of an edge-geometry weapon, and they are fairly heavy so they help make the weapons come out pretty close to the right weight without having to weigh them down artificially. My only problem initially was in cutting up foam tubes to make the edge. I think I might try to make a sword with mousepads for the flat and strips of camping pad for the edges. It would be heavier and thinner. They make pretty good light armor too for stuff like home - made elbow pads and such. You can also cut them into strips and duct - tape them to the fingers of leather work gloves to make servicable gauntlets if you dont have the bread for hockey gloves or Lacrosse gloves (or even Welding Gloves). Something tells me though I might be the only loser aronud here who is that broke! Just in case I'm not, you can usually find whole boxes of good 1/4" foam rubber mousepads from Ebay for like $15 or $20.

As for the AOL CD's, hey, there might be a way to make them useful. Maybe as stiffeners for the circular guard on
Roman Gladius? Hey, i'm reaching here...

JR
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby MurrayMoore » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:46 pm

Thanks for the GREAT story. Your determination is commendable to have a local group survive and flourish. I wish you the best with your weapons sales, as well. I hope you can send one to John to look at them. Have you built the ARMA design padded sword as well?

By the way, what percentage of your workout is spent sparring versus drills?

What about the various Study Groups? What percent of time do you spend sparring? I want to know if I'm doing too little time sparring.

Thanks.
"...each with his sword at his side,
prepared for the terrors of the night." SOS38

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:45 pm

No I haven't done the ARMA design yet, mainly because the materials (esp. that special foam y'all use) were a bit beyond my price range, but I'm going to soon as I get a bit more caught up financially. I have to say though, I am a bit suspicious that in addition to being a lot more expensive, they might be more prone to breakage. Have you found that to be the case?

In the old days, we tried a lot of different materials for swords, including various composite efforts of wood metal and various forms of plastic. We used wood a lot more in the beginning, and actually switched to both padding and PVC (after I was introduced to the idea of it at MIT campus while on a summer trip to Boston) really to preserve our weapons more than to make them safer. We used helmets and usually at least some pads, and had little concern for safety anyway being young and stupid. We found that the PVC was more durable than wood and even aluminum. Aluminum pipes would often bend around shield rims and be ruined, from contact with the ground, or even over limbs or heads. Wooden broom sticks and dowels that we could find tended to break too easily. Padded PVC pipe, especially the really strong Schedule 80 PVC, would almost never break if it was at least somewhat padded, though there was the issue of 'whipping'. Some people used flat metal bars to some success, others tried stuff like putting metal pipes or dowels in the PVC but these always seemed to break easily.

Anyway, I'm not downing ARMA weapons, I never made one yet, I'm just describing my experiences.

One thing I'm wondering about are those new latex padded weapons for LARP groups. Has anyone here ever used one? I wonder what they are like? I get a lot of competition from those on Ebay, where most of my customers are unfortunately LARP kids anyway, and they prefer the good looks of the Latex swords to my claims of historical realism and accuracy.

As for sparring versus drilling, we are coming from the opposite side of this from most groups: I think we do far TOO LITTLE drilling, and too much sparring. Again, most people probably do the opposite. But I know I have reinforced some bad techniques which I'm now trying to unlearn, like parries which don't lead to an effective counterattack or at least break the opponents momentum. Thats one thing we have picked up form the Fechtbuchs, when you parry you should do it in a way that can turn into a counter attack, if at all possible.

I have had a hard time explaining moves and stances and guards to people before sparring with them, especially when they are new. I find people don't respect my word so much unless I make a demonstrate of my point. Again, the demographic I'm dealing with are mostly experienced street fighters so they have the natural aggression and usually fairly good reflexes and instincts already, so I'll often let them spar after a short introduction to the weapons and some basic safety guidelines, and they usually pass the spastic groping stage that some people have to go through.

Then the way I usually handle it with a new guy, is like this. First I'll give them a long weapon, or a weapon with a shield, and I'll take a single very short weapon, and then we will spar a few rounds. Usually their reach advantage balances out a lot with my superior training, and they get a lot of hits in. This pleases them and gets their confidence up, and they can tell I'm not intentioanlly holding back. If they are losing over and over from the get go, or if they feel that you are playing with them, sometimes they never experinece the rush of victory which is what draws a lot of people into this, or at least from my perspective.

Then I'll pick up a blocking dagger or a slightly longer weapon, and we'll spar a few more times, but this time I'll win most of the time. They will try much harder, but I still win. Thats when I'll first start pointing out their mistakes, simple things like telegraphing, or over reaching. Maybe I'll show them a new guard. Then we spar some more and they do a little better.

By now have usually become more interested in what I have to say, and paying very close attention to what I'm doing while we are fighting.

Then I'll re-equip myself again, so that we both have equivalent weapons. We spar some more, and I win nearly every time. Now they are very interested. We stop and I start showing them some moves, and we do some drill until they get it. We start practicing blocks etc. We spar some more and they notice improvement. I show them another guard or counterattack or feint. We do some more drill, etc.

By this point, I usually have them hooked, and they are even willing to read the books.

With the old salts it's different, simpler. If I learn something new, I'll spring it on them after we have been sparring for a few rounds. If it works, they will want to know more about it, and I'll show them, or we will crack the book or look at a printed out diagram and look it over, discuss it, and then we'll practice it a bunch. Usually I'll try a new move or technique out on a weaker fighter first, and get good at it before springing it on one of my more experineced friends, and they do the same to me. This way we one up each other, we are kind of competive still that way.

As for study groups, we tend to read up on our own, and then when we find something interesting we email each other about it or talk it over on the phone. We don't do too much studying together.

Basically, I'll admit we are way, way too unstructured, and I want to evolve to a more structured approach, but I have to do it the way a Celt or German barbarian leader would influence his tribe, by good example. I can't coerce anybody nor would I want to. I think gradually we are moving in a more serious direction with more voluntary self discipline as the techniques from the Fechtbuchs have consistently proven themselves over and over, we are sharing techniques, and we can all sense general improvement. Even some of the variations on basic stances were a revelation to us!

Overall, this is the kind of thing I want to learn from ARMA.

I do think having said all that though, that sparring is very, very important. And not just half speed with wasters or blunts, but full contact, full force sparring with padded weapons (until something better comes along)

I recently got in an argument with the 'master' of another WMA group who shall go unnamed, who insisted that padded weapon sparring leads to "indestructable warrior syndrome", in the sense that people will strike you without regard to the possibility of being struck back. I can understand what they mean by that, but it smacks too much to me of that old SCA b.s. about "good kill, but you did it wrong". I think a 'double-kill' where you got the guy but left yourself open is the same thing as loosing. But amateurs who dont' know how to sword fight or how vulnerable they are will strike at you in a way which leaves them open to simultaneous counterattack. A good fencer should be able to deal with this without getting hit. If you can't beat the [censored] out of amateurs, your martial arts sucks! No matter what kind it is! You can't just tailor it to 'the way it's supposed to be'.

What the exact balance should be of sparring to drilling, I dont' know, but we'll all find out together, since around here, i get the feeling everybody wants to find out, unlike some other groups where they try to cloak themselves in overly mystified "warrior mystique" to make themselves seem more important!

JR
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby david welch » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:38 pm

FWIW, you can get the same foam ( or so nearly identical I can't tell the difference ) by getting the green foam kneeling pads for gardeners from wally world or Home Despot. They are about 16"X 8", and just a couple of bucks apiece. All you have to do is cut them to the right size for what you want to do with them. It took us 3 to make 2 padded longswords, and 1 can be cut into several practice knives.(If you are REALLY practiceing knife fighting, cover in duct tape, paint the "edge" with red lipstick, and wear white t-shirts <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) And I just saw some that were close to 18"x18" at Home despot.
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:46 am

Wow, I'll look for it. I'm a regular at Home Depot between my sword hobby and constant minor repairs to home and hearth. Is that stuff better do you think than the foam camping pads?

JR
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger

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Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:16 am

Great post Jeanry! Your weapons look very good, much better in appearance than any I've put together. I'd like to try them out some time. I would encourage you to work towards forming an ARMA study group. I've gotten so much out of my association with this organization and it's members I can't even begin to tell you. It sounds like you guys have exactly the right atitude. Although many of our members are quite scholarly and intellectual, they are also practical, pragmatic and realistic in their approcah to learning historical combat methods. As John often says "we take our studies seriously but we don't take ourselves too seriously" Good luck!

Guest

Re: Slum Fu stompers struggling to become a fechtschul

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:02 am

Hi,
Our padded contact weapon designs are continuously evolving, they're not any one person's and I don't think any one of us feels proprietary about them or has a personal attachment to them. Someday, someone will perfect them I'm sure. We're always open to new versions and better looking ones (we detest duct tape). All we want is a tool that handles reasonably like a steel blade in it's quickness and agility as well as its mass, yet is safe enough to make very firm and fairly solid blows on unarmored fighters. It can't be too thick, plus it has to have a discernable edge and flat shape while not whipping or over flexing. That's all. But, alas, easier said than done. You always have to trade off some of aspects of realistic handling for the safety (which is why it's so important to balance your practice by using steel and wooden blades). While I've focused less and less on contact weapons in our curricula over the last three years, I have no doubts about their utility and training advantages. There's nothing like cleanly whacking the heck out of someone to convince them of the error of their view.

JC

p.s.
Re the LARP swords, some of those I've handled were really gorgeous in appearance, if not fantasy styles, but were way, way too light and still whippy if used with proper energy and motion. Yet, I am convinced with a doubled core size they would be excellent...except for the $100+ price tag.

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Latex weapons

Postby JeanryChandler » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:38 am

You hate duct tape! Horrors! I LOVE duct tape! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have noticed how some manufacturers of 'boffers' make little cloth sleeves for them. I seem to be spastic when it comes to sewing, and though my girl just got a new sewing machine, I can't convince her to spend hours perfecting such sleeves for my swords. Claims nursing school keeps her busy. Pshaw!

Yeah, though I am loathe to admit it, I think those latex weapons may be the future of this. I wonder if it would be worth-while to contact some of the manufacturers and ask them to produce a heavier "martial arts" line of weapons.

For those who haven't seen them, you can see some latex weapons here:

https://hosting-domains.hosting-domains.org/%7Erampantmouse.com/shop/catalog/default.php

A friend of mine claimed that it would be pretty easy to make a mold for these too, but I don't know how realistic that is. I don't know anything about latex. If it was feasable it might be a worthwhile effort for ARMA to make, it could revolutionize the whole WMA community. As nice as those aluminum weapons are, I don't think they are the final answer for sparring.

JR
"We can't all be saints"

John Dillinger


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