Lack of Axes

[Joachim Nilsson]

Yes, I do find that interesting too. They have a vide variety of axes -but more or less all of them are categorized as "battle axes". But the weapon type itself is catalogued (although not there) -otherwise it wouldn't show up in different publications under the name "horseman's axe". The sentinent problem, I think, is that for some reason, among scholars of ancient weaponry (excluding ourselves then <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) the axe seem have been somewhat neglected in favour of the sword. Or is there any major literary works that I have missed?? <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

And I'm also curoius as to what Patrick's experiences with the "Lutel axe" might be. I've been drooling over that weapon for the better part of a year now. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Patrick Kelly]

I have spent some time working out with this axe. Regardless of the historical parameters I don't think I'd want to try using it from the back of a horse. It's really a two handed design in the case of the Lutel.

The axe has a very nice balance, almost too nice. The ball at the end of the haft is solid. It provides a nice counterweight which makes the axe easy to handle with two hands. I would, however, like to see a bit more weight in the blade end so as to give more impetus to a strike.

The only real criticism I have is that the haft is round instead of oval. An oval haft would help with control and edge orientation. All in all though it seems to be a solidly constructed piece, and a very unique one that I haven't seen replicated elsewhere.

[Joachim Nilsson]

I have spent some time working out with this axe. Regardless of the historical parameters I don't think I'd want to try using it from the back of a horse.

An interesting question that pops into mind is: How would a fully grown, battle-hardened person that have had weapons training from the age of 7 and horseback training from an almost equally early age view or think about that that?? <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> And no, I am in no way questioning your physical abilities Patrick. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Craig Peters]

Interesting. How much did it cost in US dollars?

More importantly, how do you think one would effectively wield an axe of this sort in combat? I would suspect that a slightly modified version of Vom Dach, both from above the head and by the shoulder, would be the most effective guard to use. Are there any others that might work? The other thing is, when you swing an axe you have a fair amount of momentum, but what would you do if you had to fight in Nach with it? And do you think that a strong swing with it in combat would have enough momentum to prevent someone from effectively trying to counter or displace your attack with their weapon?

Craig

[Patrick Kelly]

Hi Craig,

Unfortunately, anymore, I'm more of a collector than a martial artist. Demands of work and family don't leave a lot of time for my old martial pursuits. Quite honestly, I'm not familiar with your terminology so I'll answer what I can.

I believe that the Axe cost around $350-$375. I purchased it through Art Elwell about two years ago.
http://www.a-work-of-art.net/

The Axe does have considerable mass. Consequently I think that the best defense against it would be voiding rather than displacing, this is assuming your opponent is using the typical longsword. I'd feel more comfortable with direct contact if I was using a sword and shield against it, or a larger mass weapon like a poleaxe.

[Craig Peters]

Does anyone else familiar with the terms I used have any thoughts on the use of an axe in combat?

[david welch]

We work quite a bit with tomahawks, but I don't know how similar they would be to an axe. Cold Steel had a good article @

http://www.coldsteel.com/Articles/Fighting_w_Tom/fightingwatomahawk.html

but I am filtered at this terminal and don't know if it is still up.

I am working on a few techniques with an axe "sort" of like this.

One of them is this... give it a try and tell me if it works for you, or if you are far beyond me, give me some pointers. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Note: the beard on the axe is so you can get your hand right under the blade to hack with, but it seems to work for this too.

Note: I am left handed. If you are not, you get get to try to reverse _my_ instructions for a change. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Stand with your feet shoulder width apart, axe head to the left with the blade pointing down and your left hand under the beard. Place your right hand in the middle of the haft, on the other side of the rondel from the blade. Palms twards you on both hands.

Get in a middle guard with the blade just to the outside of your left hip with the haft across your body,sort of a "port arms" position. With your opponent strikeing at you with an Over Strike, move the haft to the left and up so that you have moved to hanging point, punching their blade with the haft above your right hand and deflected their blade to your left, and now have the axe with the blade pointing up by your ear. Quickly transition your left hand to the end of the haft and pull your right hand back and you have assumed a classic "woodchoppers pose". Step forwards with your left foot and chop, slideing your right hand down just like you would to split wood. This is the strongest technique with an axe I have been able to come up with yet, but it seems similar to me of some of the lond sword techniques I have seen. I am assumeing for now that as I learn long sword I will be able to adapt a lot to axe takeing into consideration it's size and ability to cut only on one side of one end, and I am also assumeing the reason there are no axe manuals is because they did the same.

Any suggestions on how I can improve this?

Thanks,
David

[JeanryChandler]

my $.02 on this, for what it's worth.

First, I think you don't see axes, other than poll-axes, in fecthcbuchs because in the period when most of the fechtbuchs were written, axes had largely faded from use by
infantry, and as personal weapons. I would assume that for the most part single - hand axes were used by cavalry, or were two handed designs 4' or more in length . For exmaple, the axe somebody mentioned earlier that Robert the Bruce used, was apparently a Sparth Axe or Kern Axe which was, I believe, a two handed weapon similar to a bardiche. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this)

As for the luttel weapon y'all are discussing, based on the length and the overal design, I would defiantely assume it was a horsemans axe. I'm guessing here, but I think the reason it probably 'feels' like a two handed weapon is that, like so many other reproduction weapons, it is probably too heavy. Six pounds sounds very heavy to me for any melee weapon other than a pole arm. One of the things which seems to be have been discovered over and over as swordsmen, so to speak, get to handle real period weapons, is that the replica weapons are almost invariably heavier. I mean, I don't think real zweihanders (dopplehanders) six feet long weighed that much.

From a sparring ponit of view, I would say that at 32 inches, that weapon is simply too short to use two handed. You would be very vulnerable to a hi-low or low-hi attack from a longer weapon, like a long sword. That is a weapon you would use with a shield, IMHO. I have a padded 'bearded axe' weapon very similar in overal size (though with a much bigger, infact exxagerated blade) which I used effectively with a shield or even a buckler.

You can see it here.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/thumbs/Axe2.jpg

It weighs about 2 1/2 pounds, which might be too light. It's great for hooking shields...

JR

[JeanryChandler]

By the way, I just wanted to say Patrick, I've seen some of your stuff before online, I think you have a really interesting collection.

JR

[Patrick Kelly]

Thanks Jeanry,

Wait until you see the newest member of my collection. It's a 13th century design by Peter Johnsson.

[Craig Peters]

David, let me make sure I understand you correctly. From the middle stance that you describe, your opponent swings an Oberhau with his weapon, presumably his sword. You raise the haft of the axe and use it to deflect aside the weapon, and in the process, your axe moves into position to allow an immediate counterstrike. Does this sound correct?

Does anyone think it would be possible to use the axe head to counter or displace an attack in order to make a counter attack?

[david welch]

Yes, I think you deflect with the haft into a position to allow an immediate counterstrike with the axe-head.

"Does anyone think it would be possible to use the axe head to counter or displace an attack in order to make a counter attack?"

I don't think so, but you could write encyclopedia on the subject of "what David Welch doesn't know." <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I will explain why I think that way.

I have been sparring with hatchets for about a year. With a single handed axe, your basic moves are going to be the snap cut, drop cut, thrust, hack, and chop. Of all of those, only the chop has a chance at getting through any protection at all. It might hurt like heck to get hit, but you wouldn't cut though a heavy leather jacket.

My favorite tomahawk is my Cold Steel Rifleman's Hawk. It is a great utility, throwing, and camping hawk. But at 32oz. on a 19" haft, it is _way_ too heavy to fight with. However, the Cold Steel Frontier Hawk, at 19oz. is great. The trouble is that if you had a 3 lb. 48" sword that balanced at the guard, you would have a pound and a half in your hand, and a pound and a half distributed down the blade, with most of _that_ weight closest to the pommel if it had a good taper. If you have a 3 lb. single hand axe, you have a 2-3/4 pound axe head at the end of a 20" 4oz. stick. The leverage working against you trying to make quick movements with it is incredible. So for one-handed use, 20oz. on a 20" haft works pretty good. But it won't usually go through a car quarter panel. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Put the 20oz. axe on a 30" haft and it will, but you are getting back to the leverage working against you again. The only way I can see a heavy, short one handed axe being used would be to use it in packs, with one person useing it to pull back a shield, one person pinning a sword like it was a jutte and another going into the opening. But it is easy to get your axe head locked up with the sword and be disarmed. Now if you take that 2-3/4 pound axe head and put it on a 35" haft and use both hands, the haft to deflect and the axe to hit with, it works pretty well, all the way around. With my Rifleman's Hawk on a 35" haft, it is still just to slow to start and stop the head to use it as the fighting end and I wind up useing it as the "finishing" end. The fighting is being done with the haft. The only problem with useing it that way for me, is in effect, it is really a 3' crows beak, and when you step in against a sword to deflect, even in sparring, you have to really mean it, and be pretty sure it is something you need to do. In real combat, you would have to be one brave fellow to do it, and I am sure they would have seen that as a plus.

But I admit I could be wrong, and this is just what I have found so far that works for me and await, and look forwards to, being enlightened. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> However, until I see something different, I will continue to believe that is you go in axe-head first, you better be voiding instead of deflecting.

Thanks,
David