Codex Wallerstein harness question

[Shane Smith]

I was studying the armoured work in the Codex today and I noticed something that strikes me as very odd.It seems that more often than not, all of the armoured guys have a full cop on one knee and the other knee cop will be short a lame which allows for maille to show under the joint as seen here

I have never noticed this before and can't imagine the significance of the asymmetrical harness. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.Thanks <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[david welch]

It looks to me like that the leg shown without a knee cop is supposed to be a view
of the _back_ of the knee. Notice on the back leg of figure on the right, you can
make out that it is the back of the knee pretty easily. See the "U" shaped gap at
the rear and top of the greave on the figure on the right? It looks almost
identical to the "U" shaped gap on the back leg of the figure on the left. As for
why his foot it turned the wrong way if that is the back of his leg, look at the
same figure's left hand and try to figure out how he makes his _fingers_ bend
backwards like that. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> It seems the artist has a little trouble with perspective.

Something to kind of keep in mind when trying to figure out stuff from early
artworks is that a mathematical theory of perspective in art didn't really
start to emerge in europe until early in the 15th century. A lot of artists
at the time drew in a way that wasn't exact, as they were still makeing a
transition from drawing "flat" to trying to draw things as we actually see
them. It is a compleatly different style of art, and I think you could
make some pretty big mistakes trying to get information from it if you
are assumeing you are looking at badly drawn perspective art instead
of well drawn "flat" art.

Some good examples of both are at:

http://www.crs4.it/Ars/arshtml/renart1.html

Thanks,
David

[Brian Hunt]

Hmmm,

I was also going to suggest a bad perspective for the back of the knee, but since David has already beaten me to the punch, I will just have to nod my head and agree with him. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt.

[Shane Smith]

Excellent insight David and Brian.The only problem I find with that idea is that more than half of the images in the codex armoured section look that way and the others look to be drawn normally.I just can't believe that the artist couldn't represent a knee cop properly more than once in a row(if he could get the perspective correct in half of the images,he should be able to get it right in all).There has to be a reason <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> ...Unless the reason is to make us all scratch our heads in the future and go "hmmmmm" <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

...Still,you may well be right.I will look into it a bit further and perhaps Bart with check in on this one.

[david welch]

Yea, well. It takes a fat man to admit he's wrong. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Looking at fig 176, you can see maille under the knee cops looking
at them from the front. It looks like the one in your picure is a
weirdly drawn cop from the front. Compare the left figures rear leg
in your picture with the rear leg of the right figure on plate 176.
Still, as far as an asymetrical harness though, look at fig 167.
If it _is_ asymetrical, why is the knee cop on the right leg on
one of them, and on the left leg on the other? I am beginning to
think the problem is not so much with perspective, but that he
had trouble drawing knee cops if the leg is not bent. I'll keep
going over the plates to see if I can figure out anything else.

Thanks,
David

[Shane Smith]

This is getting weirder and weirder.In plate 168 the guy on the left has maille under BOTH cops!?!?Also in plates 177 to 178,there are reasonable representations of a cop from the front. I am at a loss.Your explaination seems the only reasonable one on the surface yet the artists seems to have no problem drawing articulated arms save that he shows NO maille there in the inside joints where it perhaps should be, from every angle, and legs are little different as far as the details and perspective go. Interesting.Please let me know if you come up with anything else.Thanks <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

Don't ask me why, but some armours had mail demigreaves, which I'm certain is what is pictured here. Even with plate greaves. Some armours in museums still retain these.