More Slum - Fu: Sparring on the cheap

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jeanry,

You have had some good constructive critiscims on your footwork, I would like to add some words of wisdom from a post I read by Jake Norwood. He said when cutting, always cut towards the back foot/leg. What this means to me, and I will stand corrected if I am incorrect here, is that the direction you want to cut to is towards the back leg. For example If you are standing with your sword in a high guard over the head and your left leg leading and you wish to make a downward diagnal cut from right to left, you either need to do a passing step forward with your right leg, or backwards with your left leg so that the left leg becomes the back leg and as you step you cut downwards diagnally towards the back leg. By way of a counter example, if your sword is still in a high guard above your head, your left leg is forward, but you wish to make a downward diagnal cut from left to right, you should either do a simple advance or retreat (much like a modern fencing step) and perform your cut once again with the step towards the back leg (in this case your right leg). This type of footwork combined with your cuts works for all 8 of your cuts, whether downward, horizontal, or upward type cuts I always cut toward the back leg with a step. As a general rule you should always step when you cut.

Now as to things, in my humble opinion, that I saw right. You and your partner are both keeping an upright stance, and your both keeping your knees bent. You are both moving in and out of the range of each others weapons. You are both trying to create and maintane the intiative in your attacks. You are keeping your two weapons from tangling each other up and keeping the left one on the left and the right one on the right. When striking both you and your partner do not make the mistake of leaning into the attack and exposing the head.

By the by, SLO stands for sword like object, and is generally used for sparring weapons of some type.

Hope you find my comments helpful. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just my 2 cents worth.

Brian Hunt.

[JeanryChandler]

Hi, I looked at your clip, thanks for converting it to MPG. After watching it 5 times though, I don't see really much difference in the strikes, other than a couple of my hits were a bit light. You can see a more standard strike in the beginning of the clip "connoly1". I don't see how the strikes in your clip Lance were any harder or really, any different. I could see where your footwork was a bit better though. I also looked at clips from the ARMA gathering, such as the one titled "changing through" where tim knocks a guys helmet off. Maybe I'm myopic. Here is an old clip from last year where I broke the guys helmet strap... does that look hard enough, or enough follow through?

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/shield2.mpg

[JeanryChandler]

>You have had some good constructive critiscims on your footwork, I would like to add some words of wisdom from a post I read by Jake Norwood. He said when cutting, always cut towards the back foot/leg.


This is very interesting. I like the idea. But it raises an issue I have to wonder about, with a lot of this stuff, correct ways of doing things. I can see wanting to swing that way for energy purposes, to get a cleaner strike, but what if I can tell that my opponent is anticipating a swing from that side (it would be the most common way of attacking), and I know I can fake him or her out and connect with say, a feint and a diagnal cut from the other side to his leg. Should I go for the sure thing or should I wait and try to hit correctly? Should I swing the right way knowing it's going to be parried or that he will stop it with his shield?

Similarly, I think this same question applies to alot of proper technique, like the silly pommel - parry I was mentioning earlier. If it will save me from getting hit, shouldn't i do it? Or even parrying with the flat. If somehow my sword is facing the opponents blade edge outward, well I don't want to knick my blade but I'd rather ruin a good sword than cut open this ugly, malfunctioning head I have.

Even if I can't kill or maim with one blow, shouldn't I get the hit in anyway, since it may slow him down or help me gain the initiative for another followup attack? Thats actually a technique I often use is a light hit which puts them on the defensive followed up by a harder one, or two or three. This evolved from the old days, if someone didn't agknowledge being hit, you just tag them again. And again if necessary. And always be ready for those 'post mortem' counterattacks. Like in that one clip 'Connolly2", I hit him in the side lightly but he didn't agknoweldge it, and he tries to get me again, nearly connecting, so I tag him a second time little harder on the head, to get his attention.

I suspect that I'm wrong on this general feeling, but it's hard to visualize in action how the correct techniques trump the half - assed ones that seem to work anyway.

JR

[Lance Chan]

"Follow through" doesn't mean hitting hard by whatever means.

If you can't notice the difference between my clip and ur clip, then maybe there is something you've always neglected, which is exactly the "follow through". <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Besides from a real sword cutting aspect that our swords have to "cut through" the target instead of stopping dead at the moment of impact, do you see that whether our strikes miss or not, we always go back to another stance in a smooth motion? Cut from stance to stance fluidly will construct your follow through.

On your clip, you seem to hit there, stop, then retrieve the struck out sword back to the stance and hit again...

Ur strap breaking cut doesn't look like with a proper follow through since you're very off-balanced after the cut. What if you miss? What if there are multiple opponents waiting for your off-balance moment to finish you off? <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hmm.. about breaking helmets... Dun wanna talk about it here... Just have to say, been there, done that, but always more than the strap. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Tony_Indurante]

thanks for the pointers. I always thought I usually step forward as I strike but I guess I'm not doing it right.

When you did step it was with the wrong foot. As an example- your sword is in your right hand, you want to cut from right to left, you step forward with your right foot as you cut. Vice-versa if you are cutting left to right. It's that simple, but your reach will be improved dramaticly.

[JeanryChandler]

>On your clip, you seem to hit there, stop, then retrieve the struck out sword back to the stance and hit again...

I don't know, I just looked at mine and yours again a few times each, the only time I left my sword sticking out as you say was after the first time I killed him (in both clips).

Before scoring "kills" I seem to transition back to my guard pretty smoothly, in some cases shifting through a defensive hanging guard on the way.

That second kill you got looked like a very light jab to me, (kind of what Chris was attempting before I tag him)
and you seem to only half-way return to your guard.

The dynamic of the fight is different too because y'all are using long swords and we were using swords with blocking instruments (shield in his case, dagger in mine)

As for the guy with the pole-arm, yeah, I know I got a little off balance at the end of that one, but it was a one on one bout with a six pack on the line, I went a little overboard!

I guess your point is to shift back to defensive guard after the round is over? I can see the value of being back in your guard but don't grasp what that has to do with proper striking.

JR

[JeanryChandler]

I don't mean to sound defensive, but I just watched that first clip several times for comparison with lances clip, and as I see it, the first three times I swing with my right arm I am stepping forward with my right foot as I swing. Am I missing something?

[Lance Chan]

I guess your point is to shift back to defensive guard after the round is over? I can see the value of being back in your guard but don't grasp what that has to do with proper striking.

-------

By follow through, in my opinion, you have to

1. Penetrate your targets instead of stopping there when you hit. You can't cut with a real sword like that.

2. Regardless of hit or not, you go through the motion and follow the flow, retreiving your sword back.

3. In a smooth motion, go back to another stance to ready for another strike, no matter you hit or not. Because

3.1 There maybe multiple opponents.
3.2 You hit may not STOP your opponent you've hit right away and he may give you a dying blow in return.

Whether you recognize that or not is up to you. Your sensitivity of motion and keen observation will be the important factors of your progress, especially when there is no teacher around...

[JeanryChandler]

>3.2 You hit may not STOP your opponent you've hit right away and he may give you a dying blow in return.

Thats exactly what happened in the clip, I hit him twice and he still struck one last time, and I parried that like all the other strikes.

Anyway, I may not yet have the 'eye' to see this as clearly as y'all do, but I understand the gist of what y'all were saying and appreciate the advice. I will endeavor to strike with more realistic intent, return to my guard more smoothly, and improve my footwork. Hopefully I'll have some improved clips to show y'all by the weekend.

JR

[JeanryChandler]

when you talk about striking with intent, does that include when you hit someones shield? I mean, thats not what y'all are getting at is it? If I strike out and they stop my swing with the shield, I'm going to strike again and / or get my sword back into guard as quick as possible, and thats it. Is that wrong?

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jeanry,

What I was describing is the basics. This is how your foot work and your cuts work together. When fighting you should always be moving from guard to guard to guard as you step. You should not just be hanging out in one guard all of the time. The three basic guards for a single sword would be a high guard, a middle guard, and a back or tail guard. There are of course others, but I consider these the basic ones. You can cut through all of these guards in transition while moving. You can throw many different attacks, not just say a downward diagnal cut from the high guard. From here you have many choices, just remember to cut to the back foot because it gives you reach, power, control, and follow through. It also keeps you on balance and stable. You can still use fakes, or use voids to create counter attacks, you can use your blade to close off lines or openings with a bind - then initiate a counter attack, you can use displacements or beats, you can even close and grapple, there are so many possibilites. After practicing this way, it will become a natural part of your combat, you won't be thinking about how to step or swing when that opening presents itself, you will just step and attack. After all, when all is said and done, a cut is just a cut. John Clements book medieval swordsmanship does a great job of going over all of these things, plus many more. If you could get your hands on a copy, it is very informative and helpfull and is much better written than my replys.

As for the pommel parry, I have seen it used many times by SCA people, and others. In Langen messer, the pommel is often used for a strike to the opponents arm or hand. It is also used for some types of trapping techniques. Sword pommels are frequently used for strikes, but I have never seen a manual that advocated a pommel parry and I concur about the dangers of such a parry that others have already stated.

As for a fight to the death, you are going to do whatever it takes to stay alive, but proper techniques well trained into your muscle memory have a better chance of keeping you alive than as you put it half-assed ones. Frequently an improperly done technique will not do the damage of a proper technique and may not have the needed effect of stopping or killing your opponent. Yes, you should take a wounding strike whenever it presents itself without endagering yourself. A good scalp cut can bleed a man out very quickly. However, not every blow has to be a killing blow to stop someone who is swinging a sword at you. After all, the closest part of their body is frequently their hands. A good counter attack to the hands will end a fight real quick. Hard to hold a sword with shattered or severed fingers. In longsword, a good Krumphau combined with a traverse on the 45 is wonderful for this.

I am sure that others can expand much further upon what I have tried to expouse here, after all Fiore compared our feet to an elephant with a castle upon its back. He labled it Fortitudo or strength. The verse he placed with it said "I am the Elephant and have a castle for a load. I do not fall on my knees, nor miss my step." The castle is our body and the elephant is our feet that move the castle from location to location. If our footwork is wrong, then our movements are wrong and we lose the power and grace that a good foundation affords us.

Just some of my thoughts and opinions on this. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt.

[Tony_Indurante]

As for having the skill, it seems to be something which has happened instinctively, I see the blow coming, realise I can't get the point where it needs to be in time, (this usually happens with the sword in a high middle guard or some kind of transition toward a middle guard after an attempted strike) and I just drop the pommel down and catch the blow with it.

The only good way to defend your lower legs is with distance. you shouldn't try to defend your lower legs with your blade at all- it's much better to traverse or step out of range and kill your opponent with your sword. This happens alot when you are not fighting at proper range- which is related to your footwork.

[JeanryChandler]

this has been a very interesting thread, I really appreciate y'all taking the time to explain this stuff to me. It's one thing to read about it in an abstract way but another to have it pointed out in context of your own fighting in a clip. Thanks again, to everyone who posted. I do have Johns Medieval Swordsmanship by the way but my copy is on loan - to the guy I was sparring with in the video clip actually. I'll have it back by the end of the week.

I know one thing, if I was ever in a judicial combat I would insist on gauntlets like Jarnac did. It is too damn easy to get hit in the hands, another fairly subtle thing I have to learn better.

Regarding guards, I'll shift from guard to guard as I sense that my opponent is reading my intent, or has compensated for my guard (I think some kind of trump the others). I'll switch to throw them off, especially before we engage.... it all depends on the weapons we each have as well. If I don't believe that they have me "read", I won't switch though, I'll stay with what feels comfortable.

For example, with sword and dagger, I feel safest in what I guess would be a middle guard, with both weapons held out toward the opponent at a 45 degree angle pointed up. This keeps them at maximum range and is a good defensive guard. But If I'm more confident, I'll leave the dagger in that middle guard and cock the sword back into a high guard, which is better offensively. From there I can strike or parry any blows too high or too low to get to with the dagger quickly enough.

Interesting that pommel parries are used by SCA. That puts 'em in the category of B.S. probably. I'll try to get a clip of an example to show you later. Boy I'm really looking forward to sparring again now!

JR

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jeanry,

you said

"I don't mean to sound defensive, but I just watched that first clip several times for comparison with lances clip, and as I see it, the first three times I swing with my right arm I am stepping forward with my right foot as I swing. Am I missing something? "

Yes you do move your right foot forward while cutting downward from right to left 3 times in a row. However, your foot is lagging behind your strike. You are cutting, then stepping. They are not in sync with one another. In my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) the step and the cut should be as one, not two seperate movements. You shouldn't step then cut, nor should you cut then step. One of the Masters ( I can't remember which one at this moment, someone will have to help me out here - ahh brain freeze!) wrote something to the effect of 'a fencer who cuts and then steps has no right to be proud of his art.' Please keep in mind I am not saying this to be offensive or critical, or to place you in a defensive position. I am simply stating this objectively for reference since you asked about this particular set of footwork. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Opinions are like A........ (you finish the rest. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> )

Brian Hunt.

[JeanryChandler]

The only good way to defend your lower legs is with distance. you shouldn't try to defend your lower legs with your blade at all- it's much better to traverse or step out of range and kill your opponent with your sword. This happens alot when you are not fighting at proper range- which is related to your footwork.

Ah, here Tony we definately disagree. With all due respect, your comment makes it sound like you may lack somewhat in experience. Managing the distance from your opponent is one tool in the arsenal, and I agree probably the safest and best. But you can indeed parry blows to the lower legs, you can even do so in a manner which sets you up for a nice counterattack or transition to short range. It is much harder to learn, partially because one of the main ways to parry is kind of counterintuitive (beating down and outward toward the blade instead of down and in which your instinct will try to tell you to do) In any event, you better be able to both parry well and leap in and out of range with good footwork. I reccomend training with leg parries. I like to practice parries by letting my girlfriend swing at me while I just block. It's therapeautic for her and good skill honing for me. There are actually several ways to do it. It's harder to do from some guards than others.

Everyone fights differently, some have certain strengths in one area and some people have strengths in another. We have a guy in our group named Skip, who is a very experienced streetfighter and has years of EMA training as well. He is one of two guys from our old group who are incredibly agile, like an acrobat. He can do standing backflips, that kind of thing. It's very hard to catch him in range and when he is, I have seen him leap over a blow to the legs on many occasions. Skill like that is very useful.

But if you can parry extremely well and strike with swiftness and accuracy, you can beat agile guys like that by disrupting their attacks and their momentum. I'm more of a swiftness and accuracy type myself! The guys who are truely deadly are the ones who combine that superb leg mobility with precision with their weapons. We have one guy like that, named Eric Gochnour. He is a truly dangerous opponent.

But regardless of agility or footwork I do think you have to be able to parry leg shots well, and there are a number of ways to do it. One thing I notice with WMA groups is that, as in the fechtbuchs, y'all do a lot of practice with similar weapons, like in a duel or a judicial combat. Long sword vs long sword, sword &amp; buckler vs sword and buckler, staff vs staff. But switch up a little, things can get wierd. Short sword and Shield vs long sword, pole arm vs sword and dagger. Try some wierd weapons like the flail. I love the flail. People always underestimate the reach. You can tag people on the back of their head before they even know you are attacking. Unfortunately even a well padded one hits so hard most people cry and whine ... <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, thats a little of my advice right back atcha... <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JR