More Slum - Fu: Sparring on the cheap

[TimSheetz]

HI Jeanry,

One must always train to be able to parry the legs IF you are in a situation that leaves you only that option, but the best defense for your legs is to move them out range.

If your opponent is striking to your legs, passing back while simultaneously cutting his arms/head is the best option.

The stepping and cutting synchronization I always describe as follows: Your foot should strike the ground as you blade is hitting the target. If they are happening at the same time, you should have the timing perfect.

My 2 cents.

[Tony_Indurante]

But you can indeed parry blows to the lower legs, you can even do so in a manner which sets you up for a nice counterattack or transition to short range.

Not saying you can't parry or block a blow to your legs with your sword- only that you shouldn't. It is a much sounder principle to move far enough out of the way to strike your opponent while not being hit. This attitude is the same as what different manuals tells us. Knowing your distance and where your opponent is in regards to that distance is a higher level martial skill- knowing how to parry and block aren't.

I know that sounds snobby, and I'm in no way trying to present myself as some "master" or anything other than a newb, but being able to strike your opponent before he can strike you is the fundamental truth of sword play- and you can't hit if you're blocking or, in many cases, parrying.

[Jonathan Waller]

I would second the thougths on the follow through of the atacks and also the idea of getting the timing of footwork and and the attack.
try offline movements with the reactions to an attack, to displace the body away from the danger.
Not sure a about pommel parries, with a real blade, hitting you grip I see the likelyhood of fingers and hands getting hit as the blade deflects.

Many of the parries that you make with the rondel would have gone through and hit you if the attacks had been delivered with a follow through, with a real weapon they would probably hit anyway as the momentum in the attack you keep them going, where as your padded weapons stop.
These are the main problems with this kind of weapon, it allows/encourages things that would be highly dangerous in reality. One has to be very careful about what you do!

all the best

[John_Clements]

Jonathan is right. This is why it's so important to train with steel blades and to use historical tools such as wooden wasters as alternatives to just round or padded mock weapons --they may be good for allowing contact in free-play but they don't teach you edge placement or the proper mechanic dynamics of real weapons. You have to expand your activities. (in ARMA we rely on four tools to achieve a broader understanding: sharps, blunts, wasters, & padded).

JC

[John_Clements]

Tony, I have to disagree as well, there are several ways to defend lower strikes to the legs with the blade itself besides just slipping the leg back or rushing forward. Each has it's application.

JC

[John_Clements]

Re defending with the handle, I believe there actually are a few samples of this shown in German manuals, but they are close in actions not full parries. I'll look them up.

JC

[John_Clements]

JR asked "if there was anything positive in the clip?". Yes, sure. Of course: you're moving, getting exercies, practicing timing and distance, developing perception, doing variosu movements, having fun, experimenting safely, trying to improve, teaching yourself enjoying good martial camaraderie, and more. Don't feel anyone is judging or condeming, this kind of feedback is what occurs when you put up a clip and ask in public for critiques, you get them. Only you can process them into context as useful or not for your own training.

The biggest suggestion I can offer i ssay to yourself, "If this were preparation for teh potential of real combat with real weapons, how would I go about it differently?"

JC

[John_Clements]

In reply to Lance's comments on intent and contact, I agree fully. Here's something from our Free-Play Guidelines page:

ARMA's four general rules of thumb for mock-combat free-play:

Placement = using good edge alignment and targeting

Intent = striking with some degree of force in proper range to ensure actual contact and in a manner that has sufficient motion to simulate the inertia of a real damaging blow

Control = not hitting too hard or too fast to prevent injury, plus not hitting off target

Time-on-Target = connecting with a sufficient interval of time whereby the weapon makes contact in order to simulate the energy that would have impacted or penetrated

[JeanryChandler]

>Don't feel anyone is judging or condeming, this kind of feedback is what occurs when you put up a clip and ask in public for critiques, you get them. Only you can process them into context as useful or not for your own training.


I hope I don't come across as overly defensive. I'm just trying to make sure I understand the critique and that neither I nor the critiquer are making and mistakes. I think overall my eye is not as subtle as y'alls is for some of these things, like seeing the footwork which I think I am beginning to understand, and the strikes which I'm not sure I do but will try to improve anyway. Sometimes when I show clips of fights to friends they have no idea whats going on, who got hit, who didn't etc. Because they don't know what to look for, and a sword (SLO) fight is a lot of visual information to take in. I think some of y'alls pointers will actually help me develop that 'eye' much better so I can see mistakes of this sort more clearly.

Plus I admit I'm both argumentative by nature and a little arrogant since few of my associates around here train very intensively or have as much experience as I do, I'm pretty much the "king" of sparring around here and I very rarely face any opponents who can beat me more than one out of three or four times at the very most. So it's a bit of a sobering reality check to realise I'm doing so many things so wrong, and so little thats right!

Overall I want to again reiterate though that I really appreciate all the feedback, I'm learning a lot. I think I finally understand several things here as a result of this exchange, and I find this discussion fascinating.. i think I've learned a lot already

JR

[JeanryChandler]

Many of the parries that you make with the rondel would have gone through and hit you if the attacks had been delivered with a follow through, with a real weapon they would probably hit anyway as the momentum in the attack you keep them going, where as your padded weapons stop.


I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't mean to be defensive, but are you saying my parries are incorrect as well? I'm not sure why a real sword would push past my parry as the swords we were using weigh about 3 pounds and are pretty tight. If anything actually my dagger is a bit light, I'm planning to make another one which is heavier.

I find it curious that for some reason, I seem to do better with the rondel and get less hand - strikes than when I try special main gauche daggers with elaborate guards. It seems counter-intuitive.

JR

[JeanryChandler]

It is a much sounder principle to move far enough out of the way to strike your opponent while not being hit.

This brings up an interesting question for me. I am a firm believer of being very aware of reach and range, and moving in and out of the striking zones.

I usually have a very good 'feel' for reach, but one thing I notice which is funny (bad-funny), is a lot of times when I'm sparring with a new person, or even an old person I haven't sparred with recently, we have to go a few rounds before either of us have a good sense of each others reach. I notice the first couple of 'fights' often end in those despicable "mutual death" results where both guys hit each other simultaneously.

Obviously this is unacceptable. Have you noticed this, do the fechtbuchs talk about it, and how can I better fight more conservatively before I have a better sense of someones reach and the "strike zone" if you will? The problem always goes away after the first three or four 'fights'. Maybe I'm just too impatient and aggressive.

I know one technique I use with raw amateurs, because they will tend to strike without any concept of their own safety or the potential for a counter. In that case I'll wait in a defensive guard and allow to strike first, which they nearly always do in a very predictable way, usually with a lot of telegraphing. I find this safer. I have used this method successfully in real street encounters three times.

It's not really safe though of course against an experinced opponent!

JR

[John_Clements]

JR, keep in mind what most everyone here is trying to do and what the process of critiquing in this way is all about. It's like watching a football game and saying, "They made the wrong play, they should have done..." etc. As an observer you have perspective to offer a critique, regardless of whether or you yourself play football or not or are any good at it you sometimes are in a position to offer good commentary anyway simply because you are detached from it. Same thing here. Take any one clip of people sparring and everyone will be able to analyze it to death and maybe draw some true generalities from it. But…it doesn’t *necessarily* reflect on that person's skill as a whole, just the material in that clip.

I expect most people commenting here are looking at things from not merely a “sparring” point of view, but of what real combat is theoretically all about –based not just on contact weapon sparring alone but also on training in techniques with steel blades and test-cutting with sharps combined with study of accounts of actual combat and the lessons in the historical sources. So, the perspective is more weighty than “how’s my sparring?” Make sense?

JC

[JeanryChandler]

So the perspective is more weighty than “how’s my sparring?”


I realise that, and I appreciate it. It really is very interesting and I have learned a great deal, I hope I'm not coming across resentful or anything. This is the whole reason why I contacted ARMA and started reading ARMA stuff, bought your book, posted to this forum etc.

I want to make it clear, for all my questions and extended commentary (babbling), I really appreciate all the feedback. It's an honor, and of immense value because y'all have read and analized so many of the fechtcbuchs and done all kinds of other research, and have practical experience. I don't have many people I can talk to about this stuff, let alone people who know what they are talking about. I feel frankly priveleged that y'all do bother to make comments, is as if I had access to a bunch of military history college profeessors who were willing to answer my questions. This is an incredibly valuable resource. Again, please dont get the impression that if I question this or that suggestion, it's because I don't appreciate it... I do!

I also do hope that I occasionally contribute some useful information to this forum as well.

If this level of interest keeps up even a small amount I look forward to trying to improve and posting a few more clips of my hopefully improving technique. I'll have to find some more web space...

JR

[JeanryChandler]

>You have to expand your activities. (in ARMA we rely on >four tools to achieve a broader understanding: sharps, >blunts, wasters, & padded).

Thats one of the main reasons I started my little weapon making business on Ebay. I'm saving up right now for my first metal sword (I have a wall-hanger but it's basically worthless for any kind of training) I haven't decided between a blunt, a sharp, or even maybe one of those aluminum practice swords. I don't have a lot of money.

I was looking at this one viking sword here for about $200

http://www.ancientedge.com/product_14_detailed.html

Which I think is made by Windlass steel. I have an open query to the company selling them as to whether it has a full tang.

If these are too crappy I may have to wait another three or four months to save enough bread. Every time I get a few bucks in the bank we have some home repair or car repair or something which drains it back out, you know how it is...

JR

[Shane Smith]

Hi Jeanry,
I think you're definitely moving in the right direction based on the course this thread has taken.At this point you have a good idea of how to rectify bad habits that you were previously unaware of.Thats a good start! Now comes the hard part...

Everyone of us I'm sure, seems to occasionally go through spells wherein we seemingly exist in the martial state of existence I like to refer to as the realm of "What on earth was I thinking!!??" This realm of existence has wrecked the ego's of more Swordsmen than any other I'm sure. The hallmark of this state of mind is the concious realization that you are screwing up even as you are launching your technique(You KNEW What to do,you just failed to convince your body to do it).This realization is then followed by another in a searing instant, you KNOW there is no time to recover before the hammer(or the edge of the sword) falls on you to penalize you for your temporary insanity. As soon as this vicious cycle has run it's course( for the moment at least),it is not uncommon for your opponent to lean forward knowingly and echo your thoughts by chiding you with "What on earth were you thinking?". Much laughter ensues... <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> This IS the next step once you know what not to do,it's now time to do it right on demand and under pressure. A tall order to be sure.

Can any of you guys tell me when I'll grow out of this stage for good? <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />