Out of shape dummys and "swords"

[JeanryChandler]

Ok folks, I finally got some sparring in this weekend. I've been itching to try out some better form. I wasn't able to round up any of my more experienced friends to practice with as seemingly everybody is out of town right now, but I did manage to recruit my buddy Ramon who is in town working for a couple of weeks. Ramon (pictured here with the old stop-sign shield and a new Viking sword i just made)

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/Ramone1s.jpg

is not trained in WMA but he had done some 'sham battling' back in the 80's and he is a good street-fighter so his basic fighting instincts and timing are pretty good.

Though the camera was malfunctioning badly I got some video clips made in which I am trying to correct one of the things I was chastized for here a couple of weeks back, namely follow-through or "striking with intent".

I've also been practicing footwork on the pell, but all of this stuff throws me off a great deal when I'm trying to do it right in a fight because I'm not used to it yet. I have to struggle with my instincts and I end up getting "my ass kicked". So I'm trying to introduce one "innovation" at a time into sparring, in this case the more proper striking.

The fighting isn't great as we were both pretty severely hung over, so I apologize for my generally bad form, but the main issue here is to figure out if I'm starting to get the whole striking with intent thing right. Overall, it is still hard to adapt to it and I'm still struggling with proper technique and unlearn bad habits, but it's starting to work out better for me, and I really like the way it works.

For comparison, here is my much criticised round with Chris Connolly, with bad footwork, impossible parries, and poor "intent" in strikes.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/connoly2.mpg

And here is a new clip where Ramon and I square off.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/Ramon-Jean2v.mpg

In this clip I get one strike on his leg with what I thought was pretty good intent and follow-through, as I understand it. He then charges in with his shield, and I manage to fend off his attack with a hanging-guard and then strike him, again I think with pretty good "intent" on the back, though unfortunately I kind of collapse on my feet when I think the 'match' is over. We had been sparring all day and I was really exhausted. We then do a final round where I struck him but I think incorrectly.


Here is a second clip where Ramon and I square off again.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/Ramon-Jean3v.mpg

The camera was really acting up at this point so I kept trying to verify it was working. I strike and he blocks with the shield. I think 'intent' was pretty good on the second strike on his shield. He then tries to charge again but I side- step. I dodge his thrust and get him (with I think pretty good follow-through) on the head and then try to finish off with a half-assed draw-cut across his chest but he whacks me with a post-mortem' attack that I should have been ready for, if I hadn't again kind of collapsed on my feet at the end of the 'match'. (I apologize for the bad form here, I have excuses!)

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/Two-One-Vic.mpg

Finally, here Ramon and his 14 year old son Hakon attack me simultaneously. I try to fend off their attacks (which is hard to see because we are so far away and the zoom isn't working on the camera), then strike Ramone across his back with sufficient follow-through that actually knocked him off balance, and continue to finish off Hakon. The end of the match is obscured because the camera finally konked out.

Overall, I still have to think about follow-through more than I should, but it's coming more naturally. Like I said, I know my footwork is still bad, I'm trying to work on that too (mainly with the pell right now) and hopefully will be ready to try it in "combat" by next weekend.

In any event, I'd appreciate further criticism, which can only help me remember that humility is endless, and hopefully learn yet more about how to fight better and more in the manner of the old masters.

JR

[JeanryChandler]

To me it looks like there are still some issues with footwork.

Stuart, thank you for your comments. I realise my footwork is still wrong, I wasn't trying to implement correct footwork today because I was trying to concentrate on better striking-intent first. I was trying to introduce one improvement at a time because otherwise it's overwhelming.

I have been working on footwork with the pell but at this point I still have to think about it too much to be able to step correctly when I'm actually fighting. It's kind of like learning how to type wrong: I used to type about 90 words a minute basically with two fingers (well, with a totally incorrect position) because I taught myself that way. Now I type about 60 words a minute using correct finger placement, and I make a lot fewer mistakes. I finally learned.

By next week I'll hopefully have gotten enough practice with my footwork that I'll be able to try it in a fight. With any luck I'll have another clip by then where my footwork is correct.

As for two opponents, it depends what they are armed with and what I'm armed with, but I'll usually try to line them up. In this case though they started out on either side of me (at their insistance) and both kind of charged at the same time, I really wasn't able to line them up properly. Thats the problem with planning in battle, the enemy does their best to screw your plans up.



JR

[Derek Wassom]

I am going to agree with Stu, here. I think you will find it easier cutting with a passing step. In the first vid you cut to his leg from your right side, but keep your left leg forward. Doing it this way will cause ballance/reach problems.
I think your "intent" is improving, but again, it will be even better with the proper footwork.
Off topic: I love Ramon's Misfits/black-flag shield. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Derek Wassom]

Also, <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
I don't want you to think we are harassing you on your footwork, I think we are all just trying to impress on you how important it is. Basic stances/movements and footwork should be your TOP PRIORITY.
I suggest doing some more sparring, but half-speed or slower and really try to pass and traverse more (both you and your partner). As soon as you are comfortable with it, speed it up just a little.
It doesn’t matter weather or not you are sparring with "speed and intent", if you are using improper footwork, you will become off balance, and have poor technique.
Good luck.

[John_Clements]

Yes, footwork is vital. We stress it in ARMA ---particularly because we feel it's been notoriously weak in much of historical fencing practice. Learning to strike with simultaneity with the whole body begins with proper stepping and movement. In fact, have a whole chapter on footwork in one of my forthcoming books sometime next year. The historical sources spent much time on it.

For instance, the master Liechtenauer called movement the heart of swordsmanship and the crown of the whole matter, stating when fighting “be in the movement, and not in the rest…” and adding at one point “constant movement comprises the beginning, the middle and the end of all swordsmanship…” He often advised to strike “always in the movement” and “always be in the movement.” Liechtenauer taught of movement, dexterity, stepping forward or back and diagonal, passing around, and leaping with strikes that they were coordinated with footwork so that you step neither too close nor too far. His most famous quote on this is, “Who rests, that is dead, who moves, is still alive”. In the 1490s, Pietro Monte also said: “it is good to dissimulate with the feet and hands, for if we remain fixed they can easily injure us.” Similarly, Martin Siber in his, Fechtlehre, c.1491, wrote “in all your fighting you are nimble” The anonymous 15th century English sword text MS 3542, for example instructed, “let thy hand and thy foot accord together in good afense.” Joachim Meyer’s teaching on the longsword, in 1570 stated “nothing is built on so much as footwork” and that “every strike must have its own step, which shall happen at the same time with the strike.” Giacomo Di Grassi wrote that same year of the importance of footwork and stepping saying, “Most great is the care and considerations which the paces or footstepps requier in this exercise, because from them in a maner more the from anie other thine springeth all offence and defence.” Finally, George Hale in his 1614 fencing text said it all when he observed, “all cunning in this Art consisting more in feet than hands.”

JC

[JeanryChandler]

Derek,
Thanks for your comments. I am working on footwork and I hope to be up to speed, so to speak, shortly.

I also hope you understand, though I realise my footwork is incorrect, in these clips I was trying to focus only on proper striking -intent. I wanted to make sure I actually understood what y'all were talking about. I think I now have it down.

I realise I'm coming at a lot of this backward, but I have a rather unique situation. I've been sparring with sticks and padded clubs for 15 years. I learned a few things the wrong way but I can still usually hold my own in a fight.

Unfortunately I do not have a regular sparring partner as such that I can really consistently train with. There are a few people from the old stick fighting group who I can pretty frequently lure out to the park for some "sham battling", but as most of them are into it for the thrill of the contest and not really into WMA as such, they don't really have the patience to sit and help me work on my form. (i do some light sparring or training sometimes with my girlfriend during the week, mostly for exorcise [which you can tell I need plenty of!] but she's been having to study all the time lately)

As a result, I try to work on form alone with my pell, and then when I have some new (to me) technique down well enough that I don't have to consciously think about it too much, then I'll try it out when I'm doing full- contact sparring, which is pretty much all my friends are interested in engaging in. I hope I'll be ready to try correct pass-steps and footwork by next week.

I'm hoping to get some people here more into WMA eventually, but at the moment I'm pretty much on my own as far as serious martial arts study goes.

As for half speed sparring, I am sparring at half speed (or say, 2/3 speed) in those clips because if I strike full-force they complain that I am hitting to hard.

JR

[JeanryChandler]

Yes, footwork is vital. We stress it in ARMA ---particularly because we feel it's been notoriously weak in much of historical fencing practice.

Thank you for your comments John.

Since my earliest days of stick fighting I have been aware of the importance of movement in general, and thanks largely to the ARMA members who posted about my previous clip I am now more specifically aware of the importance of correct footwork in particular. That unfortunately does not affect the amount of time and work it takes me to learn to do it correctly.

The sparring I did this weekend was an effort to try to get the correct strike. I was told that in the first clip I posted here last week I was "tapping" and not striking "with intent", a euphemism which I wasn't sure I understood. I posted these 3 new clips in the hope that I could verify here whether or not I have figured out how to do what y'all call "striking with intent".

As I mentioned before I have also been practicing pass-stepping when I strike the pell though I have not mastered it yet, and I am hoping to be comfortable enough with it that I can introduce pass-stepping into my next sparring sessions, hopefully as soon as this weekend.

As for movement in general, you will notice that while I was incorrectly leading with my left leg most of the time, I was not standing sitll <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JR

[JeanryChandler]

Ok, this is what i'm interpreting from the feedback I got. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

"1) Strikes are a little better vis-a-vis intent and follow through, BUT..."

"2) this doesn't really matter because footwork is more important anyway and you are leading with your left foot and not stepping when you strike. So go away until you figure out the footwork part."

Does that sound about right?

[Derek Wassom]

Yes. All except the "going away" part. I'd miss you! <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Craig Peters]

Jeanry,

Just a suggestion from a fellow beginner. Watching those clips, it seems to me that you favour the Ochs stance, and otherwise, you stand in a position that is comfortable to make strikes from. I know that I tended to use one or two stances only when first starting out. However, the problem with this is that you become an extremely predictable sword figther if you use only one or two stances.

If you haven't already looked at them, I would recommend reading JC's article on longsword stances. While working on your footwork, try some of the different stances, and especially important, try making transitions between stances. Remember, stances are meant to be used fluidly , not statically, in swordsmanship. The stances are easy to transition between in terms of footwork; often, only a simple step forward or back is necessary to complete the transition. Next time you spar, besides trying to work on your footwork, see if you can use a few other stances.

Good Luck

[JeanryChandler]

Yeah, I have been trying to learn some of the 'new' guards as well. I used to rely on somethign like a middle guard, ("Pflug?") and three different hanging guards normally, one of which is similar to the boars tooth, and a tail guard when I was trying to lure someone into closer range. I have been experimenting with the Ochs which seems to work for me, I like it because it's good offensively but I can still seem to parry effectively with it, and with my bad footwork I rely on parrying a lot. I use a high guard ("vom tach?") occasionally but I'm not used to it and it makes me feel a bit too vulnerable, and I have yet to master the low ("Alber" or 'plow') guard because I haven't figured out how to parry from it or do strikes.

I notice that my middle guard is less like the way they seem drawn in the fechtbooks very close to the hip and more like in the photo's of John there on that link you sent me. I've tried doing them close to the hip but without much success, I find it too hard to parry and strike effectively. Thats probably because I haven't learned all the strikes yet.

In the clips I was trying the Ochs consciously, and it probably looks a little jerky because I'm not all that used to using yet.

In general I tend to shift from guard to guard as necessary, usually when I feel they have read my guard. When I am facing a better trained opponent I'll tend to shift much more.

You can see in this old clip from the spring where I shift I think pretty smoothly to something like a tail guard in order to lure my opponent into closer range so I can strike him. When he attacks I drop into a hanging-guard parry and then strike his forearm.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/e/deodand23/fighting1b.mpg

Interestingly, I had never heard of a tail guard at that point, it was something we used to do in stick fighting, a 'trick'.

JR

[Craig Peters]

I find Pflug a particularly good guard when one is beginning, as you have a sword in front of you, ready to quickly thrust. If you step back quickly to void your opponent's strike, your sword is in front of you to ensure you can protect yourself from the strike. As you mentioned, you like to parry a lot, which is fairly easy to do in Pflug. Of course, as the experienced ARMA members will tell you, these are not particularly good techniques to use because you do not displace or otherwise beat aside your opponent's blade. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would highly recommend using Vom Tach, as it is probably the best guard to deliver Oberhau (downward strikes) from. I prefer using the variant Vom Tach with my sword chambered at my shoulder, rather than over my head. It allows for downward diagonal Oberhau (or Zornhau) quite nicely, and one needn't worry about feeling vulnerable. Besides, as Master Fiore says, the vertically downward strike from above your head, (Fendente I believe it's called), is ridiculously easy to counter with experience.

For Alber, try raising your sword slightly and making a quick, low thrust. Be careful when you use this technique, since leaves open your upper body. Also, you can make a very quick transition from Alber to Vom Tach and in the process strike your foe. Simply strike upwards from Alber and finish in Vom Tach with your sword above your head.

With Pflug, I prefer the sword in front of the middle of my body, rather than at the hip. I believe this is Fiore's version of the guard.