Postby Erik D. Schmid » Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:08 pm
Well, Eric, the recent test cuts we did on a custom made section of small diameter flat ring riveted maile produced by a armor researcher certainly qualifies as being far from falling short in my opinion.
Well, John, how historically accurate was the test sample in question? The following is what I posted on the Armour Archive dealing with my thoughts on tests of this nature. It should illustrate my stance on this topic adequately.
I thought a great deal about this before I decided to post. The probability of me getting flamed for this is quite high, but I will speak my piece anyway.
This subject as already stated, has been discussed many, many times with nothing ever really being gained in terms of knowledge. You must all realize that unless your tests are done in a very scientific and exacting manner they will have absolutely no validity whatsoever.
For instance the mail will have to be made of wire having the same chemical composition as that of the mail you wish to study. This means making your own metal. This makes all mail produced today worthless for tests of this nature, mine included which fails because of the metal compostion. It could possibly be used for a Roman test, but that is about all. I have the ability to acquire metal having the proper composition, but the costs of making it into mail would be quite prohibitive. However, I was recently contacted and am currently in discussion with an unnamed university and national laboratory who have agreed to help the research society get the appropriate funding for tests of this type as well as other forms of link analysis.
The link diameter will also have to almost exactly match that used in the period you are interested with. This parameter is not that hard to achieve. The riveting on the other hand is a bit more tricky and requires more research to get it just right depending on what type of mail you are looking at testing. This includes the type, size and composition of rivet and also the manner in which it was manipulated in order to close the link.
What type of link are you looking at? Is it of round cross section, partially flattened, or fully flattened. If flattened, was the link lapped before or after flattening? Has there been any form of heat treatment done to the link? Where was the link maufactured? This will play a large part in determining what type of weapons said mail would have faced.
If you are going to be testing mail made in the fashion of that which was commonly used prior to the 13th-14th centuries then it should be made with alternating rows of whole links as well. Now you have to figure out what method was employed to create these links. Were they punched from a strip of iron, or were they welded? Both arguments have merit and claim to have the evidence to back them up. However, as far as the world is concerned, the jury is still out as much more research still needs to be done in that area.
Using small squares of mail will also not yield accurate results. The use of a full garment in whatever form is required and is essential to perform these tests adequately in order to get usable data.
With regards to what was worn in conjunction with mail there is still an immense amount of research needing to be done before we can say with any certainty what that was. Currently there are a couple of people who have done a fair amount of this type of research. One of them is using this research for a doctural thesis in the UK and from what I gather it is quite fascinating.
Another thing to consider is the fact that you will also have to have an expert in forensics on hand to determine what the effects this type of weapon would have on the human body. The idea of having a crash test mannequin is a good one.
As you can plainly see there are numerous factors involved in doing a test that would actually have scholarly value when completed. Of course the ones mentioned are only a small fraction of what would be needed.
The result was consistant with some of that by of our colleagues at the Royal Armory in Leeds.
That may very well be, but how accurate was their sample? I will be there in two weeks, so I will speak to them in detail about it then.
So, would you care to elaborate on your view of our test? I'm curious as to what you base it on, seeing as how you were not present at any of the testings and have not handled the piece in question.
My basis for asserting that your test was not the most accurate is summed up quite well above. Looking at the sample you had made for you I can readily see that it is not the most accurate in terms of construction. You have to understand John that I have been researching and manufacturing mail armour for at least six years on a full-time basis, so I hope I would know what to look for in terms of what makes a piece of reproduction mail accurate or not. Judging by the picture of this mail I can see that it was made with pretty much the same technique developed by Steve Sheldon of Forth Armoury. This manufacturing technique while producing a riveted link, does not yield an accurate looking riveted link. Since the link is not accurate looking, the results from any tests will not be accurate as they relate to the original pieces. Do you see what I am getting at?
I am not trying to belittle you or your tests in any way. I have been involved in these sorts of tests in the past and always have questioned the results because I knew they were not the most accurate. As mentioned above I am in negotiations with a National Laboratory who has contacted me and expressed interest in helping the research society with our cataloguing project by providing metallographic analysis of original samples of mail. It is hoped that this data will help us in reproducing accurate mail for use in destructive tests of the sort you have been involved with.
Jeanry, That mail was made of high carbon steel that was hardened and tempered.
Regards,
Erik