Rasslin' with Fiore de' Liberi

[david welch]

While trying to figure out some of the moves in Fiore unarmed <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> I was having some trouble getting the results I wanted. Some of it worked but felt a little, well, pansy. This is the first one I am really happy with.




I have seen this one described as a hip throw, but like I said, pansy. Then I started to think. This isn't judo, this is a manual on how to kill people in the quickest possible manner. Everything here is fast dirty violent destruction of your enemy! And that jogged my memory...


Because of my head which I have put under your arm,With little effort I will throw you to the ground.

The arm and leg positions are a little different, but I found out if you use Bill underwood's throw with Fiora's hand in the crotch and right leg sweep, you get some interesting results. I couldn't figure out why Fiore was useing these until I found out what happens when you do this with intent. The leg sweep lets you drop the guy from a higher position, and the hand in the crotch keeps his body from rotating on over so he only lands on his face. If you sweep and then kneel on the same leg while letting the sweep help you "rotate", you wind up piledriveing him on his head with all of his bodyweight behind it, and carrying most of _your_ bodyweight in his shoulder pocket.

Is it effective? I don't know. I was going to try this a few times with my cheep grappleing dummy but this move tore it's arm and head off. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
I guess I am going to have to make stronger one.

Thoughts? Want more? Old stuff you already know and I am just behind the power curve?
David

[Casper Bradak]

Yes, that's how I've interpreted it as well. That particular throw is in at least a few manuals I've never practiced it more than halfway though as it looks really painful lol, I don't know how you'd get out of that without a concussion or a broken neck or something

[david welch]

Most of this (I am hopeing <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) is just too destructive to practice on a partner. You really need to make a practice dummy so you can go all out. Being able to work with "intent" is as importaint to figureing it out as it is to practiceing. These are the plans for my next dummy, since I just killed mine. I got it from a web site where someone got it from a site where... and so the circle continues. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

(With some minor editing)

"Do it Yourself Wrestling Dummy.

The first thing you do is measure your skelton. I mainly measure the length from the top of the head to the pelvis, then each upper arm, each lower arm, each upper leg, each lower leg, and the shoulder width.

I get a piece or two of thin PVC pipe found for real cheap at any hardware store. This costs maybe 3 bucks.

I cut up the PVC with a hacksaw and vice to the sizes measured. I drill a hole at the appropriate place on the end of each cut PVC piece. I use the vice to hold the PVC in place while I drill.

I then use 10 of those circular spring steel key rings that can be found at hardware stores. These are about 25 cents a piece. I feed these into the holes I drilled into the PVC pieces to make articulating joints. There are only 9 articulating joints, but I use two rings where the shoulder attaches to the spine for extra mobility in that joint. The spine is a long single piece and the shoulder attaches at the appropriate place somewhere in the middle. The joints: knees(2), elbows(2), hips(2), shoulder/arms(2), shoulder/spine(1).

This looks sort of like a skeleton at this point. I then cut to size some of those cheap plastic foam fun noodles that are swimming pool toys. I use these to cover the upper arm, upper leg, shoulder and spine. I leave extra material above the top of the spine to be the "head". I split the foam down the middle like a hot dog bun. I then wrap up this part in duct tape - lots of duct tape. I also bridge each articulating joint with the tape to add more realistic resistance.

I use two normal sleeping pillows for the torso wrap and again, apply lots of duct tape.

I use foam insulation pieces made for PVC on the lower arms and lower legs. Again wrapping with lots of duct tape.

It looks pretty much like a fleshed in skeleton at this point. I use an appropriately sized insulated canvas work suit (Walls or Carhart) from the local farmers' store. I put the skeleton inside this, and tape up the hands and feet. I also tape up the neck so the suit stays in place better. I put a few wraps of tape around the midsection and upper legs to keep the suit in place better.

And there it is. It takes no more than two hours to construct and costs $50 if you have to buy the coveralls. $20 otherwise.

It's good for double legs, single legs, hip toss, judo throws, and just plain beating on. The worst thing that will go wrong with this is a busted key ring, which can be replaced in about a minute.

This has proven to be a worthy project - I made one for myself a couple of years ago and it's still going strong.

The one I made for myself has two pillows for the torso, and one pillow each for the thighs. I also used fun noodles for the lower legs. I also bundled up some newspaper and made a more bulbous head for chokes, wrapped with lots of duct tape (of course).

Don't skimp on the duct tape - this is a rule to live by and one of the true secrets of life."



some notes:

For takedowns/throws, either prop/hang it up or have someone hold it. Probably could put a release type hook behind the 'head' easily to hang it up.

Use those quick links that are normally for chains. They have a threaded part so as to fasten them better.

Buy about 4 to 6 rolls of Duct Tape, you are going to need it. For the arms and legs double up the pool noodles for thicker parts.

If you build head out of foam and lots and lots of tape, you can probably use it to strike and cut on too

When I get my stuff to make one this weekend, I can post construction pictures if you need them.


Thanks,
David

[Jay Vail]

Good work. I've always been puzzled by that throw. What book did you get the photos from?

[david welch]

Sorry. I should have given credit where it was due.



http://www.ju-jitsu.ca/combato/Combato.htm


Thanks,
David

[Jay Vail]

Thanks for posting Combato, Dave. By the way, I can now identify the Fiore throw as one that is also in judo. It's called kata garuma there.

[Mike Cartier]

Yes we do that throw in Brazilian Jiu-Jutsu, only we sit more, using our bodies like a medicine ball and rolling the opponent over our shoulder onto the ground. By twisting our bodies in midair we end up in a good side mount position. Its easily practice and you can roll out of it nicely when its done to you.

The bill underwood version there looks a bit easily countered, if the head is not tight behind the guys arm and your hand down wrapped on his leg, there is no leverage to stop the Opponent from simply turning , jumping and clinging to your back.
The fiore version seems to address this.
People rarely stand still for this sort of thing though, so i wouldn't say this was a very high percentage throw, i notice in our randori like takedown sessions its very hard to get your self setup deep enough to gain the necessary leverage.
A simple sprawl is enough to counter it and if you go deep as your should, you are left rather open to a counter attack (especially a striking one)
So while i enjoy trying this sort of thing in free sparring, i am dubious about its value in a real street situation.
The basic high school wrestling throws and judo throws seem much more in line with good high percentage street situation.
Thye leave you less vulnerable and can be just as deadly if they are not experienced in falling and you end up in a dominant position after wards even if they are not injured.

And as Bill Underwood there shows, there is no poorly executed throw that cannot be made up for with a swift kick in the chops. perhaps my favorite part of that sequence <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

David, I don't agree with you about the nature of this throw. Bob Charron recently demonstrated this one to us at our recent fencing conference as well as a two day seminar.

For a start, the Fiore's feet are in a different position from Underwood's. If from Fiore's position, you bend down to pick up the foot has done then you will be sprawled on and visciously guillotined. Mike alludes to this above in terms of Underwood's material alone. By standing tall as Fiore does you stop the other guy sprawling and stop him from even attempting a guillotine.

When Bob did this move to me, he was able to lift me from the ground easily due to his spine being straight. The throw itself is less a hip toss and more pushing the opponent onto his back foot and ripping his front foot out from under him.

As an aside, I have done quite a bit of WWII combatives research and training and consider Underwood's material to be the weakest. Too much twisty-wristy and noty enough eyes-throat-testicles for my liking. HIs system would be better for police officers than soldiers IMHO.
Cheers,
Stu.

[TimSheetz]

HI Stu!

I thought that Mike agreed that Fiore seemed to have covered the technique so it was NOT easily countered.. at least that is how I read :

"
The bill underwood version there looks a bit easily countered, if the head is not tight behind the guys arm and your hand down wrapped on his leg, there is no leverage to stop the Opponent from simply turning , jumping and clinging to your back.
The fiore version seems to address this. "

Maybe I misunderstood him. Mike?

Tim

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Tim.

Huh? I said that Fiore stands tall to stop this happening........

Stu.

[TimSheetz]

HI Guys,

Stu, I thought you were commenting based on the post from Mike Cartier.. when as I look back now, I see you were commenting to Dave.

Sorry for the confusion. oops.

[Stuart McDermid]

LOL.

No probs Tim. What do you reckon is going on in this plate?
Stu.

[david welch]

Hi, Stuart.

A couple of points for you, but we are basically in agreement.

1st: the text in the underwood pic says that he useing the bending technique so a short person can do it to a tall person, as it says in the text on the picture. note is fig#2 he couldn't get his shoulder jammed in BG's armpit without bending BG backwards.

2nd: I do agree about the weakness in Underwood's. That was just the closest modern picture I could find close to the technique. I'll try to be clearer on that kind of thing in the future.

3rd: My main point was that I had seen it shown as a kind of hip throw, instead of a type of shoulder wheel. And I was pretty sure that it had something to it to make it a NASTY shoulder wheel. I don't think Fiore would have put anything in his book that wasn't nasty.

With that said...

"For a start, the Fiore's feet are in a different position from Underwood's."

From my post:
"The arm and leg positions are a little different, but I found out if you use Bill underwood's throw with Fiora's hand in the crotch and right leg sweep..."

I am sorry I am not explaining how I am doing this very well, and I will try to get a picture of this up when I am able.
If you start in the position of the plate, in mid sweep, step on back with the right foot. Pivot 90 degrees to the right, and try to bring the left hand and right hand together, drawing your shoulder into his armpit, and useing the hand in his crotch to prevent him rolling, to keep a back to back position. Either kneel with the left knee and continue down, or belly flop. With either one, the BG is traveling through an arc, picking up speed, and then being slammed on his head carrying your body weight on the front of your shoulder in his arm pit. Try to imagine a forwards Ura Nage. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It sounds weird, but after a few tries there is no way I could practice this on another person. There is so much energy in the landing that you couldn't keep from literally tearing off their head.

And Stuart, personally, from that position I would have rather not put my head under his arm, but used O Soto Gari with a chin jab, followed through with a head spike to the ground, and finished up with lots of stomping. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi David,

I still don't think this is a shoulder wheel throw. It is simpler than that. Pulling the leg back takes away the receiver's base and just drops him.

I can see where this throw comes from in context. Imagine you have attempted to pass through to take the other guy's back and he clamps down with his armpit and drops his weight a little. You can't continue your pass through obviously, a back lift throw like Underwood shows is not efficient as the bg is bearing his weight downwards. The best thing to do is to help him bear his weight downwards by ripping his forward leg from under him and standing tall.

This is my take on the technique. Btw David I very much agree with you about the "chinjab takedown". A favourite of mine for sure. I have even found a "nice" version for free play. Instead of pushing the chin straight back, push it to the right. (assuming he is on your right side) This makes for a nice circular throw and makes him land nice and close for the (feigned:)) knee drop.
Cheers,
Stu