Swordsmen are born, not made?

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby scott adair » Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:28 pm

I have heard of civil war era weapons in museums which when examined closely were found to contain multiple charges of powder and musket balls stacked one on top of the other. One source hypothesized that the men may not have been firing and were simply loading to look busy if they were being watched by their commanders.

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby John_Clements » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:18 am

Guys, I think modern war, with killing from range and anonymous death from explosive, is a bit different from the mentality (and preparation) needed to close with and look your opponent in the face as you slay them by hand while risking them doing the same to you, don't you think?
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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby Brian Hunt » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:18 am

John,

I would tend to agree with you. I knew a guy who was in the army who had no problem with the concept of shooting someone, or using a grenade or a mortor. But he could not abide the concept of hand to hand combat with or without blades of any type. He didn't like his combat that up close and personal. Interesting discussion though.

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George Turner
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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby George Turner » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:59 pm

There are many interesting factors at play. You have a typical warrior society, which often holds the view that only certain individuals have what it takes to fight, often leading to a stratification into a special warrior class. A later view is that you can take your entire crop of 18 year olds, shave their heads, wash out the few doofusses and malcontents, and make the rest do endless bayonet drills until they they'll all stand and deliver. Instead of revealing the inner secrets to the select few who by nature can learn it, the shift is to one of "I will beat on you maggots til you get his right! Do you understand me?!!!"

Anyway, one thing the killology studies suggest is that inhibitions against killing become greater as the range gets closer, and that the sight of another human face is a natural inhibition to killing in most people. Some of the slaughter that occurs in the exploitation phase of combat might occur because the enemy has turned their backs, removing the sight of their faces, and become nothing but fleeing game.

Whereas in one-on-one encounters soldiers will sometimes just wave at each other and wander on their way, or get into a shouting match, the researchers couldn't find a single instance of anyone on a ship refusing to fire a weapon, even though doing so would kill thousands of people. Mentally, you can either be attacking an enemy weapon system or another human being. Nobody seems to even have an innate inhibition to pressing a button to destroy a radar blip. They also note that in general, the less well you can see an opponent, the more likely people are to fire on it. If the target is nothing but shadows moving in the treeline, everybody will open up on them without a second thought.

One thing they do say is that our reluctance to kill drops during realistic training, through basic operant conditioning or stimulus response. I can think of nothing more repetitive and realistic for overcoming an innate inability to strike a lethal blow than than endless realistic sparring with an instructor screaming in your ear.

A related thought to the possibility of a human face being an inhibitor to killing is what happens when everybody armours up and closes their visors. At that point, would we more naturally feel that we're just destroying enemy weapon systems? Also, if you can only perceive your enemies through a slit in your helmet, are you less inhibited about killing them?

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby david welch » Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:22 pm

"Also, if you can only perceive your enemies through a slit in your helmet, are you less inhibited about killing them?"

I distinctly remember looking out of a gas mask and feeling that I wasn't looking at anything "real". And with night operations useing NODs, I might as well have been playing a video game. I imagine that looking out of a helm does give some sort of emotional "barrier" between you and the person you are trying to kill.
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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby scott adair » Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:41 pm

George,

I had not thought about helmets distorting or reducing a view of someone's face, but I think that it would have an impact on the psychology side of things.

I read somewhere that if you turn your back to an attacker to flee that he is more likely to finnish you off because he does not see your face and it is supposedly easier for him mentally.

Here is another thing to consider, and I think this has been discussed before. While we may be somewhat desensitised to violence; people of the med/ren eras were exposed to violent deaths on a regular basis and taking a human life 'up close and personal' probably did not seem so strange to them.

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby Patrick Hardin » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:35 pm

"There are some good studies there on behavioral modification to induce soldiers to more readily kill their enemies. Among the research are unsettling statistics on how even during WWII, posibly only 25% of the Allied soldiers took actual AIMED shots at the axis soldiers, the majority seems to have just pointed down range and pulled the trigger, and perhaps as high as another 10-15% shot INTO THE AIR! The peak of American combat seems to have been DS I when as many as +75% of out soldiers were ACTIVELY trying to kill the Iraqis."

That's very interesting information. It makes me wonder about something, though. These statistics show two types of armies: one less psychologically trained, and a bit more fearful, and one more psychologically trained, and a bit more confident on the battlefield. One group is simply drafted and thrown into the thick of battle, not really knowing what to expect, and the other is told what to expect in their training, and marches into battle already having preconceptions (imbued by their trainers) about what it will be like. Now, the question is this: at the end of the war, out of the survivors of each group, who are the real warriors, the ones who had to overcome their fear and unpreparedness and won through, or the ones who had no real test of their mettle throughout the war, because they were told what to expect from the beginning? I have a feeling that a lot of the guys who wrote the manuals we study would be counted among the first group.

And yet, in our times, it seems that the second group is the one which will have the greater advantage in large-scale war, especially if their enemy is not as psychologically trained as they are. Interesting thougt-food, that.

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby Scott Anderson » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:22 pm

It seems to me that any part of combat training (at least where actually killing will be involved), even the close face to face type, involves some amount of dehumanization of the enemy. "They don't worship the same god, therefore they aren't human." "They have different skin color..." "They don't speak the same language..."
When it's just the uniform that changes, the focus is moved to that, but reguardless what the initial difference is, be it physical, theological, or even philisophical (spelling?) the focus is on how unlike us the enemy is. That we have higher ideals, or that we don't do certain things that they do, making us better than they are.
Sometimes this is true as in the case of the Nazi concentration camps, sometimes it's not. But the end result is that there has always been the they are different from us argument. this can result in a similar effect to "oh I'm not killing another person, just an enemy weapon."

does that make any sense?

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby TimSheetz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:12 am

I think that dehumanizing is done as a way to try to cope with killing another person, but it is not necessary.

I think many kill so they are not killed. If you do nothing then you will certainly be killed.

I have heard of determined pacifists in Vietnam, who carried no weapon but supported the unit they were with by carrying more gear for others, throw their ideals aside and grab a machine gun and go to work when the enemy attacked.

It has been said that many soldiers fight for each other.. to do nothing means their buddy will be killed. I think people are more likely to fight for others than for themselves.

These are all factors that affect people under fire or in combat situations.

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:25 am

I don´t think any human are born as better or worse "killare" as the word "warrior" refers to.

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:08 am

posibly only 25% of the Allied soldiers took actual AIMED shots at the axis soldiers,


This is a very well studied phenomenon. Actually the statistics were even less, and it goes back to the civil war. Many of the muskets they dug up from the old battlefileds like Gettysburg had been loaded over and over again without being fired.

From what I understand the actual rate of 'killers' among modern armies was actually as low as 15%

The Army and Marine Corps studied this phenomenon and they took active steps to remedy it. They emphasised words like "kill" and "enemy" over "hit" and "target" in training, and focused much much more on encouraging aggression. One of the other things they changed in the post WW II era was changing targets from little concentric circles to lifelike human sillouettes. When I was going through boot camp at Ft Dix in 1986 they had advanced to black 'pop-up' silhouetes which started appearing far away, around 350 yards, and then got closer and closer up to 50 yards. They kept their 'heads up a little longer at long range than at short. You had to shoot a certain amount at each range to qualify with your rifle, I qualified expert with 39 out of 40 hits <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Psychologists and social scientists claim there have been negative consequenses to this effect. Supposedly, the rate of violent crime and the number of random shootings and murders among Veterans soared. There were of course many famous cases ranging from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Austin Belltower sniper, to Mark Essex here in my own home town of New Orleans. Oh and I believe that John Mohammed guy in DC was a veteran too.

I think they also encourage a certain type of nihilistic esprit de corps in the Army these days especially, instead of old fashioned patriotism. I remember the huge riots they used to have in Germany in the 80's between rival combat units, practically tribal wars involving stun grenades, tear gas, stabbings, severe beatings etc. I know I remember when I was a stupid 17 year old kid over there, I felt so crazy all the time, I remember when we were being harassed by anti-nuclear protesters throwing snowballs at us during a couple of field exorcises, I was ready to shoot them if somebody would have given me the order.

And I was a medic!

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby Shane Smith » Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:42 pm

Wow,this thread is really winding it's way all over the place( and somewhat off-topic perhaps).Let me bring it back to fencing and swordsmanship and attempt to tie this all together.As John pointed out earlier, it's seemingly one thing to shoot a guy at 300 yards with an M14 and another to look him in the eye as you run him through.I believe that is absolutely true.

Next,when I consider the accounts given by my fellow scholars of soldiers refusing to kill enemies with firearms in combat for whatever psychological reason, all the while PRETENDING to be fighting the good fight(as evidenced by the multi-loaded muskets),I wonder if there were problems with swordsmen of this type on the battlefields of old.You know,guys that looked like they were fighting up a storm but in reality were rushing about the battlefield to and fro all the while avoiding engaging in combat with the enemy.Has anyone EVER heard of such an account?I have not and that seems interesting.Were we better men then and therefore this sort of thing did not occur... OR are the stories lost to time... OR are the stories of more recent combat failures mis-reported and hyped? Could it be said that these soldiers were lacking a warriors spirit? Tough questions.

What about it?Have you guys seen a historically-validated account of medieval battlefield non-hackers?(sorry about the horrible pun)
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scott adair
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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby scott adair » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:29 pm

Shane,

I am not well read enough to know of any cases of battlefield slackers from ancient or medieval armies. I do not think human nature has changed all that much though. If a guy just went through the battlefield attempting to avoid people and not engage anyone I think it could be done. If he hesitated to engage then a combat could be over before he was in range to assist. Getting away with it is my question. In the chaos of battle it might be hard to catch a guy slacking, but I am sure the penalty would be severe if he was caught.

This is drifting off topic, but I was wondering about the role of single combats. I have read a brief passage in a book on the Celts about single combats sometimes being used to settle an issue rather than a full scale battle. It did say that sometimes everyone else decided to join in though.
I could see this working out well either way. One one hand each side could get their best "born swordsman" on the field and spare needless losses. If their best man went down they might be demoralized and leave; or on the other hand they might be really whipped up into a frenzy by their loss. Mob mentality can be a powerful thing.

Scott

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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby TimSheetz » Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:18 pm

The percentages cited are hardly accurate.

The multiple reloads in a musket could be telling...accept do we know if the same person loaded it? Or was the same musket passed from one soldier to another in a single battle, to be picked up by another and loaded. He dies and it is picked up by another and loaded.... and then he dies... with the massive casualties in some Civil War battles it isn't hard for me to see it happening. OR was it just plain old fear and one guy just reloaded and forgot to fire... probably because he drilled the loading so much?

Percentages of soldiers failing to fire? The US had an 8 million person army at the time, how many were surveyed for this famous book? The 10th Mountain Diviision soldiers that assaulted a mountain stronghold in Italy at night armed with Grenades and Bayonets on their Rifles WITH NO AMMO LOADED managed to kill the defenders and take the mountain, and I reckon a whole lot of them got up close and personal.

The is off topic, but my point is the circumstances matter, and people are people. Take a mob mentality and a riot and the veneer of civilization is tossed off in a split second. "Civilized" people end up doing things you could scarcely imagine. All that factors in. Put a normal guy in a group, then have that group's survival threatened. He doesn't want to be alone, he doesn't want his friends killed. He will be a killer and will get very good at it. In this century or any other century.

Are swordsman born or taught? Both, but the personal disposition to be a Master at it would be a combination of drive, physical talent, and discipline.. oh! and knowledge. But the 'expert combative' individual doesn't decide the fate of any battle, ever. It is the collective that decides, and that is where an average person can be trained and taught to be part of a killing machine that gets results far beyond the mere sum of it's parts.

That was maybe, 3 cents worth.

Peace,

Tim
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Re: Swordsmen are born, not made?

Postby JeanryChandler » Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:24 pm

This is drifting off topic, but I was wondering about the role of single combats. I have read a brief passage in a book on the Celts about single combats sometimes being used to settle an issue rather than a full scale battle.


I could be wrong, but I think this is ultimately quite relevant to the idea of whether warriors are born or taught.

With regard to the question of whether people shirked combat in the middle ages, you went to exaclty the right place by bringing up the celts.

From the iron age into classical times, European tribal societies such as the ancient Celts and later the Germans, as with many tribal societies around the world, were divided into three basic classes: warriors, farmers, and priests (druids &amp; bards in the case of the Celts), with a smaller specialist fringe (such as blacksmiths) finding places along the fault lines, and slaves, mainly being captured members of other tribes. You can also see similar divisions in the Hindu caste system, and many similarities with some North American indian tribes.

There were these distinctions, and those who were willing to fight had a better standard of living and potentially could rise much higher within the society, but they were also much more likely to die in combat. All in all, though there were classes of a sort, all these folks were part of the same tribal society and lived together with a similar if not equal standard of living, usually with a democratic social organization.

Over time "civilizing" forces widened the gaps between the classes, to the point where you had slaves, and peasants ground down into being serfs on the one end, and elevated the warrior classes into the status of knights on the other. The idea of knights evolved from the Roman term equestrian, meaning roughly to be of middle class rank. It literally meant a citizen who could theoretically afford to fight mounted on horseback, though the Romans themselves had largely abandoned cavalry from early Republican days and relied on mercenary Cavalry.

So of course knights, being of the bellicose class, and forced into a martial lifestyle from an early age, would tend to be the more bloodthirsty, and willing to kill. Those who lacked this orientation could enter the clergy.

Members of the military class also watched each others performance in combat, and a willingness to take on risk, a true warrior spirit, was an important part of being a general, going back to the time of Alexander. Both Alexander and Julius Ceasar fought in the very front lines on occasions. I think the last vestige of this in modern times was when officers in the Civil war used to make a point of parading in front of enemy muskets to prove their bravery. If they survived their reputation led to a better chance of being promoted. Supposedly by World War II it was rare for an officer over the rank of Capitan to be anywhere near the front lines.

It's also interesting that by the middle ages and the Renaissance, the most successful peasant armies were of volunteers, especially tribal or clan based volunteer systems, as with the Swiss or the Scotts, say. Conscripted peasant armies were notoriously ineffective. It was also true in classical times, purportedly key to the succeses of the original Greek and Roman republican armies, and is still considered the case today, a 'volunteer' army such as the US and Britain have is considered superior to any conscript army, man for man (and woman for woman)

As for individual combat, this is a world wide tribal tradition, which was indeed practiced heavily by the Celts. It helped serve to cut down on casualties in the very frequent intertribal conflicts, which could otherwise have led to depopulation. Interestingly several Roman generals were challenged in this way and occasionally they accepted, and in some cases even won indidiual combat. Apparently they didn't win that often because it was officially banned by Roman law to accept such challenges somewhere around 100 BC.

JR
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