assistance

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Steve Thurston
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assistance

Postby Steve Thurston » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:17 am

Hi!

I'm doing a final year disseration on Medieval sword techniques and have found most of the research done by archaeologists to have totaly ignored the existance of a possible 'style' of combat. This means they also little of how much damage a sword can do, one paper states that an axe will leave a deeper cut than a sword.

At this level of research I cannot afford to fund a full experiment regarding WMA. I was, however, wondering if anyone out there might be interested in sharing their expeirences of test cutting and its effects. I am primerely interested in effects on bone, but anything will do.

If anyone has any digital images of the results etc. I would most grateful.

I will reference all info that is used and send on a copy of my final dissertation if anyone is interested.

Thanks in advance

Steve Thurston
fechtclub1500@aol.com

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John_Clements
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Re: assistance

Postby John_Clements » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:32 am

Hi, Sure. Would be happy to help. See the various sections on the site here re test cutting on the Photos page.
I agree re axes cutting deeper, it's the nature of the tool.

As to "style", well you'd have to define what you mean. Hoplologically speaking, the existance of weapons among any people does not ipso facto mean the existance of a systematic combatic methodology for employing them or for passing along such knowledge.

JC

p.s.
didn't we chat via email once before on this awhile back???
Do NOT send me private messages via Forum messenger. I NEVER read them. To contact me please use direct email instead.

Steve Thurston
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Re: assistance

Postby Steve Thurston » Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:39 am

Yeah!

I first got in contact in 2001 for a project which I had to leave till my dissertation. Now in my final year I have started work on my dissertation, unfortunately it's text based rather than experimental.

However, I thought I could use some of the info out there to demonstrate why archaeologists (with no training or experience) performing test cuts does not represent what might be found in the archaeological matrix.

If I pull off my dissertation I should hopefuly be able to get decent funding for an M.Phil performing test cuts or looking for bone modification due to combat training. Could mean lots of X-rays of live people who practice WMA.

As to "style"; I was refering to guards/wards that are common across Europe at least during the C15th. Talhoffer, Ringeck, Liechtenauer, Vadi, Fiore, MS 39564 and G. Silver all appear to have wards that are common to the hand 'n' half sword. The sword and buckler of I.33 demonstrates guards the influence of which is visible as long after as Silvers work.

Allowing for regional variations and the progression towards the hand 'n' half there appears to be a common "style" across Europe for more than 300yrs, I just hope it leaves some sort of macroscopic evidence some where in Europe between 1300 and 1600. If it does, it might be possible to look at earlier periods where there is lack of documentary evidence and find evidence of a "proto-style".

Anyway I'll have a look at the web sites test cutting pages thank you.

Steve

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John_Clements
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Re: assistance

Postby John_Clements » Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:01 pm

Ok, cool. Contact me again via email.

JC
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Jay Vail
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Re: assistance

Postby Jay Vail » Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:35 am

Steven, just curious, but what is the subject of your dissertation?

Steve Thurston
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Re: assistance

Postby Steve Thurston » Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:43 am

Aim:
To establish if late medieval sword techniques have the potential to leave visible, quantifiable evidence within an archaeological matrix.

Objectives:
• Analysis of known treatise and ‘fechtbuck’ of the late medieval period.
• Establish any visible unity of style, with specific reference to individual ‘guards’.
• Examine previous research regarding analysis of sharp-force trauma.
• Examine previous research studies of activity markers in human bone.
• Examine archaeological research for evidence of weapon related sharp trauma.
• Critique of previous experimental research regarding archaeological weapon related trauma.
• Conduct a brief experiment investigating the potential of forensic signatures in bone.
• Assess the likely-hood of specific sword techniques being displayed in the archaeological record and what implications this has on the archaeology of past cultures.


I've still got some work to do on the phrasing, but it should give you a general idea

Steve

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Craig Peters
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Re: assistance

Postby Craig Peters » Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:46 pm

Steve,

With John's permission, (of course), would you be willing to add your dissertation to the body of material in the ARMA essays section once its finished?

Steve Thurston
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Re: assistance

Postby Steve Thurston » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:18 am

If I get a decent mark and don't feel too embarassed

steve

Steve Thurston
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Re: assistance

Postby Steve Thurston » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:19 am

Am I right about a basic style?

As far as I can see Talhoffer, Ringeck, Liechtenauer, Vadi and Foire all appear pretty much the same. Talhoffers 'Ox', Foire's 'Posta Finestra', Vadi's 'Posta Sagitaria' and Ringecks Ochs all seem the same, and appear to co-incide with G. Silvers 'Imbrocata' and I suspect the origins can be seen in some of the I.33 stuff (not sure on plate no. or guard name). This is one of the 'guards' that I am most interested in as I feel that from here a thrust into the upper chest/breast is likely to leave quite a unique forensic signiture, probably significantly different from a downward dagger strike.

Realistically I have little experience of fighting WMA as I'm re-enactor and more familiar with the theatrical fighting. I have been taught the basics of G. Silver and I.33 by M J 'Oz' Austwick and have developed a 'working' interpretation of Talhoffer from M. Rectors book but have done relatively little in regards to proper study. My baby girl being born at the beginning of the year means I have little free time to train and the only group near me is the Royal Armouries and I have some reservations regaurding some of their intrpretations.

If you have any suggestions regarding blows that are representative of late medieval WMA I would be most greatful to hear them.

Steve

Bart Walczak
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Re: assistance

Postby Bart Walczak » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:02 pm

Ochs and Fenestra are different.

In Liechtenauer's system guards/stances are not as important as the strikes.

In Fiore, stances are a justification for many fencing actions and form the system core.

This is one of the main differences in principles which lie beneath both styles.

Steve Thurston
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Re: assistance

Postby Steve Thurston » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:43 am

If you stand in the same gaurd and strike to the same target area, how much would the principle mentioned, behind the action, effect the the final out come?

would it make any real difference? Ochs (Tobler 2000)and Fenestra (Porzio/Mele 2002) on the right lead to an attack comming at the 'victims' left, or a thrust; most suggestions appear to be a thrust (Hicks 2001, Hector 2000, Porzio/Mele 2002, Tobler 2000), either that or close for a graple which is going to be a lot harder to characterise within an archaeological context.

Steve Thurston
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Re: assistance

Postby Steve Thurston » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:55 am

....most suggestions when thrusting appear to be to the head or upper chest (Hicks 2001, Hector 2000, Porzio/Mele 2002, Tobler 2000), .......

sorry about that

Steve

Jay Vail
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Re: assistance

Postby Jay Vail » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:41 am

Style perhaps is not the proper word, at least with regard to the wards. The German and Italian “schools” use the same wards because they are the most efficient way to stand ready with the two handed sword. (Sorry, Bart, but to my eyes the wards are essentially the same.) You will find the same basic wards used in any system using a two handed weapon; kenjutsu for instance uses the same wards, even pflug (although in kenjutsu pflug appears to be a minor ward rather than a major one as in European practice). Hence in Japanese fencing systems you will see alber, pflug, von tach (above the head and at the shoulder), ochs and tail. (In at least one iaido ryu, there is a kata which solely involves moving from one ward to another, through all the wards used in that system.) Variations of these same major wards are found in pole weapons systems, such as the pole axe, the Asian staff (bo and jo), and the naginata. Japanese spear systems also appear to use at least some of these wards; oddly, however, European spear wards seem to be somewhat different. Because of the widespread use of these wards across the world, across cultures, and across weapons systems, it is clear the ancients discovered they were the most efficient method of standing ready to attack or defend with these two handed weapons. It is likely that these wards are very ancient -- thousands upon thousands of years old.

However, in your research you should concentrate not on the use of the two handed sword, for that weapon was popular in Europe for only a short period. Rather, the major European weapon throughout most of our history was the one-hand sword, with shield. I would look first, then, at the effects of the one-hand sword and to how it is used.

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John_Clements
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Re: assistance - stances

Postby John_Clements » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:39 am

I have to disgree strongly as well, Bart. I think you may be falling prey to a "system" bias that is increasingly creeping into the subject as people focus on "interpretation" instead of on "application." Both stances originate from the same necessity, achieve the same result under the same conditions using the same tool. That they were described differently by different authors in different countries using different languages is understandable. The same occurs in Asian martial arts, and the minutia of each style is often then exaggerated to justify each school or master as unique. Make sense?

JC
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Bart Walczak
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Re: assistance - stances

Postby Bart Walczak » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:48 am

It's always how you tend to look at these things. You choose to stress similarities, while I choose to look for differences. In the end we both land somewhere.

And the differences do exist. For example in the execution of strikes. As far as I know, there are no moves like Zwerchau, Schielhau and Krumphau in Fiore's instructions. Is it a minutia difference?

Ochs stance, while allowing for upper thrust, allows also for a Zwerchau, which is not present in Fiore.

Heck, the difference there is even in the GRIP. This "minutia" difference changes a lot of things...

In my opinion it is not just a question of language.

I am aware of the similarities, though.


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