Combatives

[TimSheetz]

If you are closing with someone who has a knife, the weapon MUST be made tactically irrelevant.

A well trained knife wielder will also be quick to switch his knife to the other hand if you grab his knife arm. This is a very good thing to practice. So is dropping the knife if your knife hand is being grabbed. The 'free knife' scenario makes what seems a succesfful counter vs the knife a very bad one indeed!

Tim

[Stuart McDermid]

Tim IMHO is absolutely correct that the knife must be made tactically irrelavant. (nice terminology:))

However, taking out the bad guys eyes or smashing him with a chinjab are just as viable as anything else.

My theory is this. Most people who wield knives and not highly trained and will therefore telegraph their attacks and hit as hard as they can. This allows grabbing defences.

A good knifer on the other hand will rip you up if you try for the blade. Better to offline your vitals from the attack via a void and/or an arm parry and then attack back. Attacking back is the last thing he would expect and possibly your only recourse. Makes it pretty high percentage if you ask me.

In addition, all knife defences work alot better at distance and when you can retreat from a few attacks to draw the bg to over extend. At close range, jamming may be your only option.

One option nobody has really discussed is to lean back off line and kick low. Some pretty respected instructors have shown this move over quite a period of time.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

The saying goes, "If you fight a guy with a knife, expect to get cut." While I think that there is good advice here--you should always be aware of the dangers you encounter--overall I think that the old masters saw it differently. These techniques really seem to be about not getting cut if at all possible (especially with the medicine of the day, eh!). When a "harmless" cut could kill you later on via infection, I think that preventing those from happening is of great importance. So, yeah, I think that in most techniques immobilization of the attacking weapon is first on the list.

Jake

[Shane Smith]

I agree that getting control of the weapons deadly potential is critical but I think Stu is correct in stating that sometimes a vicious counter-attack to a vital target is the best way to neutralize the weapon. A man with no eyeballs is not a great threat any longer unless it's the old guy from "Kung-Fu" <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

First of all I would like to say hi. I am new to this forum, but have been looking at this site for about 2 months now and really like the idea of finding out what works in the real world, not just a dojo.

My grandfather had lots of practicle experance and passed some of his knowledge on to me. I have a little experance from my former jobs, but nothing like him. IMHO when facing a knife you must not get caught into one tatical plan, but keep your options open and take advantage of a situatuion. My grandfathers favorite tatic for facing a knife was a swift, aggressive kick to the groin before they expected it. In his words "you gotta be quick" When someone pulls a knife on you in the real world you have a tendancy to become defensive and pull back (I know I do) however he advocated attacking as soon as you see the knife come out. The person with the knife expects you to back away at least at first, so an immedate attack is not expected. Saying this I believe each situation is diffrent and one should operate on principal not rote movements or a predetermined plan. BTW my grandfather faced many knives in his day, but only got cut once. That one time he was almost gutted except for luck. He was out of the hospital before the one who cut him was, but he could have been killed easely. Nothing is 100% effective.

[Jake_Norwood]

Well said.

Jake

[Jaron Bernstein]

That certainly makes sense. One thing I wonder is how knife fighting changes when the parties are armored. Just a thought, but it seems that the "snip, snip" approach would be less effective against someone in mail or plate than someone in a shirt. That could then require a committed knife attack (in order to get through to a vulnerable spot in the armor) that then makes those pretty knife disarms more viable.

Anyway, what do you think?

Jaron
ARMA-Columbus

[Jaron Bernstein]

I gotta agree here. I recently took up BJJ in addition to Shuai-Chaio (which has no groundwork) after an interesting experience with some Judoka. We were sharing mat space with the judo class and a friendly challenge match (with good spirit and sportsmanhip all around, I emphasize) occurred after class. I was able to get off a very nice hip throw and in Shuai-Chiao that should have been that (or I could strike him while he is on the ground in self defense application). Instead, he dragged me down and I found myself at the wrong end of a very nice arm bar. Just a fluke, I thought. Tried it again. Once more, regardless of who got the throw off (him the 2nd time) it turned into me getting tied up on the mat. So, now ground fighting is part of my cross training (even if my main focus is still standing stuff).

[Jay Vail]

I have had the exact same thing happen on the street, where you do a picture perfect hip throw and the guy beats the snot out of you on the ground. However, if you anticipate this possibility you can control the throw so that you land on top and maintain control, and then don't let the ground confrontation become a wrestling match. Also, the kind of throw you use makes a great deal of difference as to whether the fight will continue on the ground. Ogoshi, seoinage, koshi garuma, hari goshi, will almost always end up with you losing your feet. However, taiotoshi, osoto otoshi, irimi nage, osoto gari, ko soto gaku, ouchigari and the like will enable you, if not to remain standing, but certainly to retain a commanding position after the takedown. It is interesting to note that the later category of throws is found more frequently in the ringen manuals than the former. Perhaps this is the reason.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Jay,

You wrote: "I have had the exact same thing happen on the street, where you do a picture perfect hip throw and the guy beats the snot out of you on the ground."

I have actually had better luck. One thing I have found with throws (or crashes) in the "real" world (concrete, grass, parking lots, etc.) is that if you know how to fall, they are no big deal. If you DON'T know have to fall, they are far more damaging. My day job is in law enforcement and I have found that when it is needed to put someone down and you are in a position to throw them, the throw disorients them in a way beautiful to behold...if they don't know how to land. If they do, then it just turns into ground grappling day. Towards that end, IMO tumbling and landing should be part of WMA training to at least be able to land safely if you are taken down.


Jay wrote: "However, if you anticipate this possibility you
can control the throw so that you land on top and maintain control, and then don't let the ground confrontation become a wrestling match."

Makes sense. I also gotta wonder what impact striking would have here. I can't hit anyone (due to civil liability reasons) unless they first try to thump me so I am don't know. But I wonder how it would look if as a follow up to a throw, you then do some standing strikes or kicks? Would that be sufficient to stave off the guy who wants to take you down?

Jay wrote: "Also, the kind of throw you use makes a great deal of
difference as to whether the fight will continue on the ground. Ogoshi, seoinage, koshi garuma,
hari goshi, will almost always end up with you losing your feet. However, taiotoshi, osoto otoshi,
irimi nage, osoto gari, ko soto gaku, ouchigari and the like will enable you, if not to remain
standing, but certainly to retain a commanding position after the takedown. It is interesting to
note that the later category of throws is found more frequently in the ringen manuals than the
former. Perhaps this is the reason."

That certainly makes sense. The manuals I have seen avoid going to the ground.

[Mike Cartier]

well i think we can look to modern MMA competitions to see how to successfully stop a takedown.
Get your under hooks and prevent him from getting his. Don't give a leg either, you have to be super sensitive to a leg grab.
The sprawl is your best defense and with a little training you can lay in a few strikes right after the failed takedown attempt.
I also like the sprawl and slip the the side. Then you can lay in a few knees or uppercuts depending on the position of the head.
A quick sprawl to avoid takedown then clinch their head and lay in the knees and elbows is also nice.

For police purposes you can't strike but you can grab a commanding position and perhaps a good submission position to control them, chokes are you best bet for control, not the triangle or armbar due to biting. getting their back is also highly advisable..
Nothing beats the knee on stomach position for street combat, you are in a position to lay down a rain of strikes when they have no way to move thier heads and they cannot fight back. It is in my opinion the ultimate goal of any grappler, to gain that dominant position. The strikes will either knock them out or force them to give up an arm or worse yet give their back.
Striking from either mount or knee on stomach makes you in to Mike Tyson, they are easier to hit and they cannot hit you.

Its alot more important to know what to do when someone gets a dominant position on you though, thats what can save your ass, even a blind drunk street thug knows the benefit on being on top of you punching you repeatedly.
Always plan for the worst when you try a takedown i think, that way you are never surprised.

[Guest]

My favorite take down was always the hair takedown. Afterwards just plant your knee in the back of the neck or the nerve center in the upper back. I used this several times with good effect. If you use the pressure points they will give you their arm for cuffing most of the time. I only had one person not respond to pressure points and he was on pcp. I used the caroited restraint with him to get him under control.

I used the head takedown on one occasion. It worked very well but it is risky since you can break a neck. The move is executed by driving the head back with a palm strike then grabbing it and turning it like a steering wheel. Where the head goes, the body must follow. The full move is to place a knee on one shoulder and keep turing the head until the neck breaks. I didn't follow through after the guy went to the ground, for obvious reasons. Just a couple of street tested options that have done well for me in my limited experance.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi All,

I have little to add except to say that Mike is dead on with the entirety of his last post and that learning to sprawl well is one of the most important real self defence lessons you can learn after flinch reflex training.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jay Vail]

Mike said:
Nothing beats the knee on stomach position for street combat, you are in a position to lay down a rain of strikes when they have no way to move thier heads and they cannot fight back. It is in my opinion the ultimate goal of any grappler, to gain that dominant position. The strikes will either knock them out or force them to give up an arm or worse yet give their back.

Right on, mike.

Also, it can be helpful to step/kneel on their arm too. Never did that on the street, but after having seen it in the ringen books I tried it in judo. It set up a choke real well.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Mike,

You wrote: "well i think we can look to modern MMA competitions to see how to successfully stop a takedown.
Get your under hooks and prevent him from getting his. Don't give a leg either, you have to be super sensitive to a leg grab.
The sprawl is your best defense and with a little training you can lay in a few strikes right after the failed takedown attempt.
I also like the sprawl and slip the the side. Then you can lay in a few knees or uppercuts depending on the position of the head.
A quick sprawl to avoid takedown then clinch their head and lay in the knees and elbows is also nice."

Sounds very Muay Thai-ish of you. It makes sense in terms of staying off the ground.

Mike wrote: "For police purposes you can't strike but you can grab a commanding position and perhaps a good submission position to control them, chokes are you best bet for control, not the triangle or armbar due to biting. getting their back is also highly advisable..
Nothing beats the knee on stomach position for street combat, you are in a position to lay down a rain of strikes when they have no way to move thier heads and they cannot fight back. It is in my opinion the ultimate goal of any grappler, to gain that dominant position. The strikes will either knock them out or force them to give up an arm or worse yet give their back."

That also makes sense. I have never combined striking with groundwork yet. I am still at the "rasslin for dummies" stage of BJJ. I have done a decent amount of standing MMA (locks, throws, strikes).


MIke wrote: "Striking from either mount or knee on stomach makes you in to Mike Tyson, they are easier to hit and they cannot hit you."

Which is unfortumately not an option for me lest I be soundly thumped by a pack of rabid lawyers.


Mike wrote: "Its alot more important to know what to do when someone gets a dominant position on you though, thats what can save your ass, even a blind drunk street thug knows the benefit on being on top of you punching you repeatedly.
Always plan for the worst when you try a takedown i think, that way you are never surprised."

Many of the more advanced BJJ guys I train with are very comfortable in the guard. I can't make it work yet, but that does seem on the surface to go against what you say about being on top.

Jaron
ARMA - Columbus