Rapier questions

[Guest]

First, let me say howdy to all, as this is my first post on these forums. Now, on to my questions.

I'm a die-hard longsword man, but I've developed a curiosity about rapiers. I'm not curious enough to spend the money on a replica, but I was hoping some of you here could educate me a bit.
First, I know the definition of rapier is somewhat subjective. The image the word conjures in my mind is the weapons used in such movies as The Three Musketeers and The Princess Bride. Similar swords with wider blades seem more like cut and thrust swords than rapiers, at least to me. So I'm thinking of the swords with the long, slender blades so favored by cinematic swashbucklers.
First, was this weapon ever used on the battlefield in any significant numbers? Mostly I've heard that it hasn't, but just recently I read an assertion that they were. The only account I've come across was the Battle of Killicrankie, which described the small swords in British hands snapping under the impact of Scottish claymores (both two handed and basket hilt). So where rapiers used extensively in battle, or where they more for personal defense/dueling (as I'd always thought)?
Second, were rapiers any good for cutting? I always thought no, but maybe I'm wrong. I figured that the light blade wouldn't have the momentum to deliver a really good cut, and that cuts from rapiers would mostly be harassing attacks, unless they caught one across the eyes, throat, or insides of the wrists. I also figured that if that narrow blade was thin enough to take a good edge, it would be terrible delicate and prone to breaking, which brings me to my next question.
How strong were rapier blades in relation to the wider blades of other swords, like longswords? I know there would be considerable variation from sword to sword, but in the accounts of duels I've read about, the rapiers seem to break with uncomfortable frequency. Was this design prone to snapping the blade, or were broken blades on rapiers no more common than broken blades on larger swords? Could a rapier parry strong blows from something like a longsword without breaking?

Thanks for your time and answers.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guy,

Rapiers are an interesting study in what is IMHO a fatally flawed weapon. By rapier most folks mean the longer type as favoured by Fabris, Capo Ferro etc rather than the short type (which some people call sideswords) favoured by Di Grassi or Agrippa.

The biggest misconception is that the longer thrusting rapiers were light. They simply were not. They were very thick, very long and had complex hilts. How can something like this be light. On average, most rapiers are heavier than most basket hilted backswords!

"The Three Musketeers" was certainly alot closer to the mark than
"The Princess Bride" but even the latter were a little whippy and light for a real rapier.

There is a reference from around the English civil war that says something to the effect that rapiers were adopted for the battlefield for a time and then cast aside. Draw your own conclusions <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rapiers can cut quite well on exposed flesh. Despite most blades being very thick and of very steep section close to the hilt, they taper distally far more dramatically than other swords and most often flatten out completely for the last few inches. As such, they cut quite well in a slicing fashion to places like the back of the knee below the slops and to the throat as well.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

Don't be fooled though, it's not about the weight, but the balance. Even though a rapier may weigh the same as a basket hilted cutting sword, it's designed to be extremely agile in the point, and has a completely different feel.
Side sword, or cut and thrust swords, or just swords, sometimes called shorter sort of rapiers by some <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Have generally flatter blades retaining some true cutting ability, entirely different in ability and function and feel than true rapiers. Hence the importance of differentiating.
Most true rapiers being only capable of lacerating strikes, not true cuts due to mass and cross section. If they were sharp enough to slice (sounds like an SCAism) they'd be able to cut just as well.

[John_Clements]

Hi

The definition of the rapier differs among various authorities. The rapier developed for urban self-defense and private dueling from earlier forms of cut-and-thrust swords. Essentially, it was a one-handed sword which allowed for and utilized dexterous use of the point combined with a cool, calculating style of fight relying less on striking power and more on careful judgment of timing and range. Its fighting style was an apparent break with the legacy of Medieval cut-and-thrust traditions in favor of new systems advocating thrust over cuts.

Over the last few tears I’ve examined personally about three or four dozen antique 16th &amp; 17th century rapiers of various lengths and forms from several countries, and I’ve exercised with several specimens and even test-cut with some.

I was especially stunned at how fantastically well-balanced most were so that they felt absolutely weightless, lighting fast and agile (completely beyond even the very best modern reproductions I’ve handled). Only a few antique rapiers felt clumsy or awkward.

I’ve paid particularly attention to cross sectional changes, stiffness, and edge sharpness in my research (I also own about a dozen different makes of replica blades, and test-cut extensively with them on raw meat and other materials).

There are many period writers who complained the rapier did not cut well (relative to dedicated cutting blades) and were unsuited to the battlefield. This is true. They are not designed for nor capable of lethal cutting blows (or for parrying them) and no period text instructs to use them that way nor are there historical any accounts that I have found of lethal cutting blows being made in fights with true rapiers . They lack the edge bevel, blade width, blade mass, and angulation to do more than lacerate with any edge blows (...if it were otherwise, there would be no need for so many other designs of cutting swords to have been developed).

There are some accounts of rapiers being carried into battle by mounted officers (the least likely to engage in close combat) but not effectively used in actual fighting. Many military writers during the rapier-age advocated the use of tucks (short stiff thrusting swords) and sometimes later writers mistook these as being “rapiers.” As with later smallswords some were carried simply as symbols of rank and authority.

The variety of rapier blades is considerable, as all sorts of designs were being experimented with (which makes confusion and classification very difficult), but they are nearly all quite narrow and thin toward the point and many actually become oval or round in cross-section at the last quarter or last fifth of their length.

There is considerable evidence for them breaking during fights (both in bodies and against other weapons), and I have held several that had broken points and felt that many others were so thin and light that they would indeed readily break if used to slash with or even if seized by hand and forced to bend.

When I consider the teachings from historical rapier texts in light of all the above combined with recoded rapier duels and combats, certain conclusions are reached that are very consistent with historical accounts. In my opinion (and I love longswords), for single unarmored duels with a sword, in skilled hands the rapier is vicious and formidable and not to be underestimated (especially by those unfamiliar with its style of fight). Its unique foyning method is quick, deceptive, subtle, and represents one of the most innovative and original aspects of our Western martial heritage.

The rapier was around actively for some 150 years, just long enough for several varieties and fighting theories for using them to have evolved before firearms made them truly obsolete as the premier personal weapon for urban self-defence and duel of honor. If you want to begin exploring it, you can purchase an inexpensive wooden rapier waster from www.woodenweapons.com, try the material in my ’97 Renaissance Swordsmanship book as a basis for study (in which many of the questions you raised are addresses), and then read through some of the rapier articles and manuals online here to get going. It’s really not a difficult weapon to practice (as one period master even said) once you grasp the simple foundation of its method. Hope this helps.

Good luck,

JC

p.s.
I have a book now being finished for publication sometime next year that examines the origin, definition, history, and classification of the rapier in greater depth than ever before and includes substantial material never previously considered about the weapon. (but please, don't ask me when it will be available!)