Why so little winding in freeplay?

[Shane Smith]

Gentlemen,
I am wondering why we don't see more winding in freeplay? It seems that much more voiding and/or displacing and countering takes place than anything else. The German concepts of displacing and the meisterhau are relatively well represented in our contemporary freeplay, yet winding takes place on comparatively few occasions when practicing with intent. It seems that such crosses and binds from which these techniques proceed seldom happen in adversarial fencing.

I note that the padded weapons we use are a real hinderance to this type of close work as the lack of a rigid cross and the compressing action of the foam don't make sliding to the opponents weak very convenient. Wasters alleviate these deficiencies to some degree and indeed,in my own freeplay ,such techniques are more likely to be pulled off with wasters and blunts than with padded weapons but even then winding is comparatively rare.This strikes me as exceedingly odd since the German source-texts are so full of this type of work at the hilt.Now, I understand that Ringeck tells us not to rush rashly into Krieg yet how does one reconcile these observations in light of the abundance of explaination and time given to the winding techniques in the source-texts? If the amount of ink spent by the Masters defining and describing these techniques is anything to go by, it seems that this kind of close-play was very common in period.If that is so,where does the disconnect occur in modern times that stops these techniques from occuring with any kind of regularity in earnest freeplay today?

I have opinions and suspicions of my own but I'd like to hear the input of my fellow Swordsmen.Thoughts?

[TimSheetz]

Shane,

Yes, I think we have less winding due to the usual nature of mock combat. I mean that we aren't seriously trying to injure each other and are less aggressive than the men who used these swords in battle were.

I think that if you both were truly committed to the battle and trying to kill your opponent, the likelihood that you would both be closing in on each other is much greater and would open up more opportunities for winding. LEt's try it this week and compare notes. Get your partners more predisposed towards aggressively seeking the attack on your opponent and we'll see if we wind more! OK?

Another reason for less winding than timed strikes is that it is relatively easy to demonstrate and practice a timed counter using a strike, but much more difficult to "see" what is happening with winding as a lot of it has to do with the "feel".

That's my read on it.

Peace and Happy Holidays, folks!

Tim

[John_Clements]

We talked about this a few months back here.
My opinion is that winding is a core element that is very quick and nearly instantaneous, and occurs with such rapidity that while being subtle and very important, is also very difficult to express and write about or teach in words and pictures ---hence the enormous volume of explanatory text about it (relative to other elements) in the source manuals despite it being something fairly short lived in actual execution.

As we in our mock fighting are not actually cutting, slicing, or forcefully closing into bash one another with sharp steel edges, we therefore see less of it and take less notice of it.

Our long-practiced key press drill in ARMA is intentionally designed to instill a foundation of winding.

JC

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

We have done quite a bit of sparring with both Shinai and Steel and find that winding and binding really only happens with short blades like those found in Fiore rarely and only then if someone is really looking for it.

With a Vadi Length and Weight sword this changes dramatically. A twitch is much slower with one of these than a lighter blade and once the point is offline it takes quite a time to get it back online. In addition, the weapon is too long to be easily uncrossed in distance.

All this adds up IMHO to the fact that you want to act as much as possible with the point online when using a sword of above Silver's perfect length to both keep narrow space against an incoming point attack and also to stop the inevitable grapple by keeping a point attack viable.

This would be an extremely wild hypothesis if it wasn't for the fact that Silver has little grappling in his manual and the masters with the really big swords like Talhoffer have quite a bit.

In a nutshell, I really think the German methods shine with big, Long heavy swords. German methods are simply not as good as Fiore or Ledall with shorter ones especially if the sword is light enough to be able to be wielded without impediment one handed.

What amounts to an arming sword with a longer handle (Silver's sword) is extremely fast even when wielded one handed. A good distance to lie at two handed will put you in close distance for someone with a sword light enough to hit you with a one handed left hand strike on the head. This of course explains why English systems of fence often close the obvious line of attack when choosing a defensive ward.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

Stu-

I'm not sure what you're talking about, really, since the term "Winden," from where we get winding is German--as I'm sure you know. What's more is that Fiore shows little-to-no German-style winding and binding (but Meyer and Talhoffer--both with very long weapons--use a great deal of it). I must therefore respectfully disagree with your hypothesis (doens't that sound scholarly?).

I think that Shane hit on the first major reason in his post: the padded swords frequently don't allow winden due to bounce. The second reason, I believe, is fear of injury. Winden techniques all end in one of two ways, generally: a strike (usually short edge) to the head or a thrust into the face of torso. While padded weapons would allow some of this, they don't wind well. Wooden weapons wind much better, but are quite dangerous when used at speed to wind (and winding, to happen properly, must be "at speed"). And steel weapons? They beg for winding, which I believe can't be understood without using steel, but they are significantly more dangerous than wood when used at appropriate speeds.

I think that winden rarely gets past the partner-drill phase for these reasons. However, I find that when I worked with steel or wasters against Stew Feil, a skilled practicioner, that we both ended up winding much, much more frequently.

That's the last reason, I believe. Winding really is an advanced classroom technique. What I mean is that while you can teach some basic winding attacks and strikes to even the newest beginner, only a more skillful fighter will be able to use them without injuring a practice partner. Therefore winding isn't happening in sparring (esp. waster play) because few of us are good enough at it to use it without hurting ourselves or our partners, few of us use it at all.

What's helped me "get there" is the aforementioned fuehlen (feeling) drill, and drilling various specific techniques and set-plays (as found in Meyer, Wallerstein, Ringeck). I find that if I'm working with a trusted practice partner, I can really begin to "get a hold" of many of these techniques, such that I can use them in free-play and even, rarely, in sparring with padded swords.

Jake

Edited to add:
Another thing that prevents us from winding much is a tendency to use more round-strikes than zornhau-ort type attacks. We follow all the way around on almost all of our cuts (I do this largely because the weight and balance of our training tools encourages it), instead of finishing in a lower hanger or in a position from which we can immediately thrust (which, according to Bart and the gang, is the way to go. Meyer does both, I know, but the zornhau-ort technique takes more training, and I'm just now feeling like it's happening). I think in general the use of more "advanced" techniques (Meisterhauen, etc) leads to more winding/binding, since the techniques almost always end with the point towards the opponent in preparation for a thrust, should the cut miss.

End Edit

[Jamie Fellrath]

Shane (and all),

Interestingly enough, our Study Group decided during our last session that the next big topic we're going to cover is winding and binding in general (we're working out of Ringeck currently). Most of the topics in Ringeck have winding involved at some point, it seems, and we decided to get a better handle on the concept in general.

I would hazard a guess, though, that most study groups meet once a week or so. I know that's all we can manage at the current time, due to work schedules and such. Winding is something that requires a partner to practice, I think (I'm not familiar with the key press drill, unfortunately, so I don't know what that entails). So what we can practice on our own is what we're most likely to use in free-play. Until we can get together more often, then, we won't be nearly as practiced or comfortable with it.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi all,

Winding is something I have only been able to accomplish a few times in sparring, partly because of the bounce of padded weapons, and partly because I have only been able to accomplish it under the right circumstances. The few times it has worked for me has been when both I and my sparring partner are in the roof guard, my opponent throws a zornhau, and I counter with a zornhau and I am fortunate enough that my sparring partner gives enough resistance that we maintain a bind whereupon I have been able to wind to a high hanger and either I hit them with the short edge to the head, or a light thrust to the face. This has been rare for me, due to the nature of weapons to bounce, partners who immediatly disengage, displace or void, and thus the lack of a bind to even try to wind against. Does this mirror others experiences with winding while sparring? I do find that wasters are much better for winding, but as has been stated by others, are much more dangerous, and since I have never tried steel I don't have much to say there.

Brian Hunt.

[Guest]

In my humble opinion reasons are twofold:

Nature of the combat as one:
a) Keeping the initiave at all cost (german teachings)
b) Using the point

Nature of the weapon as two:
c) Padded swords do not bind
solution: Aluminum swords are much better at this (and I do not want to enter lenghty discussion on this)

Regards
Milan
www.swordacademy.com

[Casper Bradak]

I've managed to get quite a bit of winding in with padded and unpadded wasters, just by really working at it. I strongly disagree that the type of actual weapon (speaking of real weapons, not wasters) effects this at all. I've used the same concept with longswords, great swords, arming swords, messers and rapiers to good effect, with no hinerance from it's weight or design. Winding is a soft bind technique, so a weapons mass shouldn't effect it greatly.
It is a lot tougher to make binding go right with anything other than steel though, padded worst of all, but working at it has helped.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Jake,

Huh? You just made my point for me again....
Confused,
Stu.

[Jay Vail]

If I could speculate, it seems to me one of the fencer’s primary objectives is to control the opponent’s weapon. Controlling the weapon requires them to cross, or bind. Once they bind, you wind, for the wind is the set of techniques that allow control and attack out of that control. However, much of our free sparring seems oriented toward making cuts to the body rather than a cut to control the weapon. Thus, there are few binds and fewer opportunities to wind.

I have noticed that when I deliberately aim to control the weapon to neutralize it first rather than strike to the body, I tend to use the bind/wind material. Otherwise not.

also, I have noticed that most people are really soft at the bind. When the swords cross, they put up little resistance and make little effort to fight from the bind. Instead they move away or void. I sense that a fencer is more vulnerable at this moment than when trying to fight from the bind.

This may explain why we have had little binding and winding.

Comments?

[Mike Cartier]

I think the primary goal of any edged weapon fighting is to stay outside the range of your enemies weapon and bring him into your range for a strike, whether thats long sword, knife or whatever. When you are inside the range of his weapon your are open to being hit.
I think the reason we don't see alot of winding is that our instincts tell us to dance at the edge of the range of the weapon. Meyer says the highest form of the art is in the countercut, winding is a great tool to use to get back the advantage if you have lost it i think.
When I close the range I want to CLOSE the range, to nullify his weapon completly, winding range is still allowing the opponent to strike you. I find playing in the wind can easilky be turned against you, whereas closeing the distance all the way voids their weapon totally. So i tend to stay out or go all the way in, Winding is neither and makes me feel vulnerable.

And my wife says i'm already too sensitive so its best I don't feel vulnerable or there will be some tears <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Course this could just be my newbian skills causing this lack of confidence in the winding range.

[John_Clements]

"German methods not as good with short swords"???
That's an extraordinary opinion I find difficult to fathom. Have you reviewed the 200+ pages of 15th century Messer techniques by Leckuechner? They are very effective and far more comphrehesive than any Italian source for short wide baldes. Liechtenauer himself claimed the longsword even derived from the Messer.

JC

[John_Clements]

Jake, I would also add that winding for the most part is for the purpose of getting you rpoint against the opponent, and that's something that unless you are practicing with closed-face masks or helms, most people for safety actively avoid doing.
We were just discussing this very thing a few weeks ago in class and concluded we should do press-drills with helms more often so we could work the point in.